Alexander: The thinking in Europe should change towards more open policy to investment immigrants, because investment immigrants are not the bad people, these are the oligarchs, the black money, the money laundering thing like that. If there is no crime, how can you say there is money laundering and on the European level everyone with resources is seen as a criminal? This is not a good thing. This is something that reminds me of the 1970 in the revolution in Russia, all rich people were branded as enemies of the state. It is not as it should be. Rich doesn't mean bad and absolutely doesn't criminal.
Salman: Welcome to the Investment Immigration Podcast by Uglobal.com with weekly in-depth interviews with the world's leading investment immigration professionals. Welcome to the podcast and today we're going to talk about Bulgaria's immigration program. We have somebody with us who's an expert on the program. We have Alexander Dobrinov, he's a Bulgarian immigration consultant. He has served as the managing director of a big firm in Bulgaria, and he has vast experience of the immigration sector in the country. Hi, Alexander, how are you?
Alexander: Hi, Salman, I'm fine. Thank you very much.
Salman: So for our listeners, tell us about your experience, how you ended up as an immigration consultant, your entire career trajectory, that would be really nice.
Alexander: Yes, I'm currently serving as a managing partner in Citizenship and Investment Limited Liability Company in Bulgaria. We were dealing mainly with the golden passport, so the citizenship by investment in Bulgaria, until it was dramatically changed this year, earlier this year. We are also providing immigration services to EU and non-EU citizens to obtain residence permits in Bulgaria and in other EU countries, with a focus on Bulgaria, of course, is our main market. And we are running several websites like posolstvo.eu and others, where we inform the people about the possibilities to obtain residence permits and citizenship of Bulgaria and also other EU countries. Of course, again with a focus on Bulgaria. I've been doing that for the last roughly 10 years and our company comprises lawyers and attorneys and basically that's it.
Salman: Do you have only offices in Bulgaria or do you operate in other countries as well?
Alexander: We are having representative offices in Hong Kong, in Dubai and in Geneva, Switzerland. Although the main processes are happening from Bulgaria, because it's extremely important in the immigration field, that the local knowledge is updated on a daily basis. The laws are changing frequently, very frequently in Bulgaria, fortunately, and we have to be up to date with the latest amendments. And that's the only way forward in order to ascertain successful applications and successful outcomes.
So basically, the foreign representative offices are to serve his customers who are away from Bulgaria, who are far from there. Many customers are approaching us from Dubai, because it's a hub of Asian and African immigrants and citizens who are there anyways, so we can service them better from there. But again, of course, Sofia, the capital of Bulgaria is our main hub and main headquarter of the company. Here, everything happens, Bulgaria is relatively small country. So we are in just three minutes from the Office of the President, five minutes from the office of the Prime Minister, and 10 minutes from the parliament, so to say roughly. So basically, the main processes are happening in Bulgaria, in Sofia from our headquarter.
Salman: Okay. And, Alex, I'm curious, how did you end up in this immigration space? Was this something that you were doing for a very long time? But how did you enter this? And why did you enter this?
Alexander: Yes, the thing is that we realized and I in particular realized very fast that people need freedom. And freedom is mainly the ability to travel and that's very important, because basically everyone is more or less free. But traveling is something that many people are deprived of this opportunity, of this possibility. There are different nationalities, different citizenship, different passports. Some people are lucky enough to have passport from a country that allows him visa-free travel to many countries around the world. Other people are unfortunate to have passports which only allows them traveling visa-free to a few countries.
Many citizens are doing great business, they have great family life. They are socially accepted everywhere. But the passport makes them suffer, so to say. It may be a strong word, but it's suffer, i'ts a good thing to understand and to realize in the Western countries. Say the EU countries, the United States, sometimes they don't even know what visa is. They believe and that's more or less the true, they can relocate to any country in the world without any or with a very little administrative formalities, let alone traveling.
We have made studies and we estimate that around 60, 65% from EU citizens don't even know what a visa is. A visa they think it's a credit card only. But it's much more than that, unfortunately. And frankly speaking, we wanted to help people achieve that level of freedom that they deserve. And by providing immigration services, we believe we're doing a great job and many customers many of our friends already, have realized that the freedom is achieved through obtaining either different citizenship, a second citizenship or obtaining a residence permit in an European country, which allows them to travel visa free in Europe. And many other freedoms like obtaining visa easier for other countries, from Europe. Let's put it like that, for an Indian national obtaining visa for Germany, for example, a Schengen visa from India is very difficult. But if the Indian National has residence permit in Bulgaria, even a simple long-term residence permit or the lowest category of residence permit, obtaining Schengen visa is extremely easy.
Salman: That's right. And in this post-pandemic world, everybody has realized even more the importance of having the right passport and the right residency for travel purposes, for business purposes. So that's a very important point that you highlighted. And thank you for that, Alex. Now, I want to talk about what's happening with the Bulgarian investment immigration space. And as you know, it's been in the news for some time now that things have been shaken up. So our listeners who don't know what's happening, could you explain the current status of Bulgaria's immigration program? Does it have one right now? There's whole confusion of articles out there that there is a program, there is not a program because the parliament has said something. You know, there's a whole confusion going on. So please clarify for our listeners, what's going on?
Alexander: Yes, so I will try to although it's an extremely complicated matter, even for us, it's still difficult to comprehend it. So what basically happened, there was one amendment in 2021. And there was a second amendment of the citizenship law in 2022, just recently. So the first amendment from last year from 2021, changed the investment options one could invest in order to obtain citizenship by investment. The other amendment, which was the harsh one that happened this year, 2022, basically said that the investment citizenship could be only obtained after five years of residency, which is still not such a bad thing. But it's far from the one-year timeframe that was previously foreseen in the legislation.
Now, what happened is that the parliament voted that the pending applications, ought to be canceled as well, which is, in our opinion, of course, anti-constitutional, and many of our customers who have already filed claims with the administrative court, with the request to seize the Constitutional Court in order for these legal texts to be amended and declared anti-constitutional. The future will be only the thing that will show what will happen and who is right and who is wrong. We believe it's our of course on the legal opinion that the parliament voted anti-constitutional texts, and these will be overruled by the Constitutional Court in due course.
What will happen after that? We don't know. Bulgaria had elections yesterday, these are probably if I'm not mistaken, the third or the fourth elections for the last seven or eight months, the government is a little bit shaky, was shaky, it has fallen. And it's a little bit of a havoc so it's still unclear. For the moment what a certain for 100%, the investment residency and, "citizenship program" is up and running. But one could only apply for citizenship after five years, after the start of the procedure, which is not the same as it was before for only one year.
In future I believe when the text or if the texts are overruled by the Supreme Court or by the Constitutional Court, things will be reverted to it's previous state so one will be able to obtain Bulgarian citizenship in only one year. But it has happened, I have to say that because it's very important. All this has happened under an immense pressure from The European Commission. It was a political decision. The government, those people who wanted the program to be terminated there was saying there are many irregularities or even a fraud with the program.
Nothing so far proved to be true. I'm personally not aware of any large-scale scams being discovered by the authorities. So everything has been up and running fine until the whole pressure. Cyprus also fell victim of those political stances, and so did Bulgaria. So that's it. Basically, for the moment, five years full citizenship, permanent residency immediately, after five years, one can apply for and obtain Bulgarian citizenship. I believe, once again, just let me repeat myself, that if the Constitutional Court or the Supreme Administrative Court overrules the legal text, which we believe are anti-constitutional, things will be reverted to it's previous state. But it's still to be seen.
Salman: I see. And we are going to talk about the pressures from the European Commission on the program. And we're going to talk about all of that. But before we continue on that I would like you to also clarify this point a little bit further, like what do you mean that the program is still up and running? When the parliament, like you mentioned, has taken the step to basically it says that they're going to suspend the program? Because if somebody is outside of the country and wants to apply would not be clear on this, and they would ask you that, "Wouldn't it make sense for me to wait for the court's decision whenever that comes and then I should apply?" How do you approach such a client? What do you say to them?
Alexander: I will explain that the program, as it is, is comprised from two different laws in Bulgaria. The first law is the law for the foreigners in Bulgaria, and the second law is the law for the citizenship, for the Bulgarian citizenship. So the first part of the procedure is described as is foreseen in the Foreigner's Law, which has not been amended at all, it is still the same as it was before. The second part is from the citizenship law, which has been amended last year, and this year as well.
So basically, at the first part, the first investment in the program in investment products, is done by the foreigner Law, which is still as it was in the state from 2021. So one can now go by the foreigner Law, invest in certain financial instruments, and obtain immediately permanent residency, open driver's permit. Then the amendments that came, shockingly, this year earlier 2022, they only concern the citizenship law and the citizenship laws to allows for one to apply for and obtain Bulgarian citizenship after five years. But the texts that were stating that one could apply for citizenship after 12 months, after one year, these were the texts that were amended and basically canceled.
So the first half of the program is still intact, it's in the state of 2021. The second part is the one which we believe was anti constitutionally canceled. So if I was a potential investor, and I'm looking for Bulgarian citizenship, I would immediately, really immediately invest as per the Foreigner's Law, which is still in it's old shape from 2021, and I will obtain permanent residence permit on the spot. Once Of course, the investment is done, and administrative procedures have been fulfilled. Then I'll be waiting. I have to wait one year in all cases, because even the initial state of the program was foreseeing that one should wait after the initial investment after obtaining permanent residency, one should wait 12 months in order to apply for citizenship.
So if I was a foreign investor, I would go by the Foreigner's Law, invest in those investment options that there are plenty of, obtain permanent residency in Bulgaria. Wait those 12 months, see what will happen and the worst case scenario, I will be waiting four more years to apply for full citizenship. For some people, those five years which are currently the law, look too long time to wait. But citizenship by investment became something extremely difficult, it is not in Europe. It is not like it was before, like five years ago. So five years oh it might seem too long. In worst case scenario, of course, if the Supreme Court or the Constitutional Court doesn't overrule the amendment, even five years is nothing compared to a whole life living with the wrong passport.
Salman: Okay, that's a good point. And basically, you're saying that the permanent residency options are already there, and they're up for grabs and one shouldn't lose for that.
Alexander: Yes.
Salman: No matter what happens with this citizenship process later on.
Alexander: Yes.
Salman: So that's a good point to mention. And a lot of people still don't know about that. But at the same time, I will want to know from you, can one even predict the outcome of the courts about the citizenship issue? Like when can one expect that? You just mentioned that there were elections in your country yesterday, would that have an impact on the decision? Could you give a background on what to expect in this scenario?
Alexander: Well, normally, if we have to speak from a legal point of view, as in many other democratic countries, there is a strict division between the power. So, the parliamentary power is completely separated from the courts. So the election should have no impact whatsoever about the decision of the court. However, when there is a new parliament, there will be new laws being voted for, there will be many shifts in the political direction in which Bulgaria is going to, and the courts will have to tackle much more intense programs and much more legal cases, then in a stable and longer staying government in place.
So this is what will be happening now. I believe the new government will be formed soon, hopefully. There will be new laws, many of them will be tackled by the court, through the courts as not being fit. And I believe that there will be some delays in the outcome of the decision of the courts, whether the steps have been legal or not. Still, I believe that probably early 2023, there will be some decisions already been made. Because there are already some movements right now at the moment, we're organizing in a seminar in GICAN in France, in the beginning of October, where we'll be discussing these legal amendments, but the decisions we expect will happen in early 2023, from the Supreme Court or probably a little bit later from the constitutional court if things go to that court.
Salman: I see. Okay, that's a good timeframe to have in mind. Whoever is listening to our show, if they're interested in Bulgaria, they would sort of have a timeline in their mind. Now, you mentioned that there are still some options available for investors who are interested in permanent residencies in your country. And what are those instruments? If you could talk about that. Like, what are the options to get permanent residency if an investor wants to apply, what instruments are you recommending to them?
Alexander: Yes, basically, they're much more instruments currently available than they were before. And it happened in 2021, so which was a good thing with the legislation. So there are plenty of we don't have the time to discuss them all. But what I would recommend is the exchange-traded funds or the so-called ETFs. The law foresees that an investment of 1 million Bulgarian Lev which is roughly $500,000, or 500,000 euros will qualify you for permanent residency, ETFs are extremely diverse in their structure, so one could choose from different exchange-traded funds to invest in and this will guarantee him basically obtaining a permanent residence permit.
The good thing is that the ETFs, they will always remain on the account of the applicant, it is not like they have to give it or to donate it to the country. By the way, I myself invest in ETFs, without any added benefit. I mean, I don't need Bulgarian citizenship, obviously. But I still hold those ETFs which people could buy and get as an added bonus, a permanent residence. So ETFs are my ultimate choice and my recommendation to all investors who want to apply for Bulgarian permanent residency and hopefully later fast enough for Bulgarian citizenship. They can invest in Bulgarian bonds, they can invest in Bulgarian shares.
We know in the times of quantitive easings like after the pandemic of COVID, the stock market... Well, I don't speak about the last few months because of the war in Ukraine. But previously, the stock market was and these still, by the way, performing very well. The inflation is tackled best through an investment in stocks, as we all know, things are getting more expensive over the world. So keeping your money in the bank, for a negative interest rate is something I wouldn't definitely recommend. So why not go for ETFs? The professionals are doing that without the added benefit to obtain residence permit or citizenship. So why not do it with additional bonus and a serious bonus outside?
Salman: Right. Thank you for sharing all of that. And you mentioned the Ukraine war. And I want to understand the impact of the war that is having on the immigration program in your country. Would it be fair to say that the European Union, the European Commission was already against the program, but this war has sort of gave them the impetus to even crack down harder on countries who offer these kinds of programs? And it is one of the reasons why the immigration program in Bulgaria basically has suffered. How do you look at it? I mean, obviously, the program has been affected, and how are you looking at the scenario of the war and the European Commission?
Alexander: I think those two are interrelated, of course. The European Commission has been always against any investment citizenship programs in Europe, I'm quite confident about that. I've heard many statements of the officials and commissioners, and investment citizenship was seen as something dirty. I don't understand why, but that's the politics, we can't do anything. The war only cemented the position of the European Commission. And I believe the war is something very horrible war is the worst thing the world can undergo, I believe the war will be now creating a real iron curtain, even a stronger one or a harder one than it was before during the Cold War.
I believe this iron curtain will pass somewhere through Ukraine something there because Russia will be obviously left at the other side. The EU and other European countries will remain at the western part. I don't know with Ukraine, hopefully they will recover from all these losses, and everything will be fine. But the iron curtain is falling down and that's why I'm saying that those who can afford to obtain at least permanent residency in Europe right now, will never regret their decision to. I would say many Russians and many Ukrainians who have been our customers and obtained permanent residence permits are now over the moon, they're jumping, they're very happy because they have the option to stay here, rather than going to fight for who knows what. So permanent residence permit is the first step towards complete freedom by obtaining full citizenship.
I believe the stance of the European Commission was clear, long before the war, but the war just proved them right in a way. So nobody can now morally claim them that they have been too harsh towards the European citizenship by investment programs. And once again, I believe one should hurry and obtain EU whatever, by the way, wherever EU residence permit, not only Bulgarian by investment as soon as possible, because it might be too late.
Salman: Is it open to everybody? Now, post-war, we've seen that a lot of countries have bought, for example, Belarusians, Russians to apply for second citizenship. Are there restrictions now in your country, especially concerning Russians? Can they apply for permanent residencies? Are the pressures not to take on clients from there?
Alexander: There are no legal restrictions officially, but there is huge pressure from the authority not to issue those people residence permit. This is all unofficial, but we fail with, like even when they go to the bank to open a bank account, it's a big problem. I don't say all foreigners are able to easily open bank accounts in Bulgaria, but for Belarusians and Russians, it's a huge problem. And with all the steps registering in a municipality, we see some difficulties there as well. So without these small difficulties, it becomes extremely difficult to obtain residence permit or citizenship for those people. But again, officially, legally, there is no difference between Russians, Belerusians or any other nation, other citizens in Bulgaria.
Salman: Thank you for sharing that insight, because a lot of people don't realize that so many people suffer, and they have nothing to do with the war. But they suffer. Alex and now let's talk about the pressures from the European Commission itself. And you must have seen already what's happening with Malta, where the European Commission has decided to take Malta to court for its Golden Visa program. And as you mentioned, the European Commission and the European Union have put a lot of pressure on countries who offer similar kinds of programs. So where do you think this is heading then? A lot would depend, I think, on the decision of Malta's case, which would set a precedent for other countries. But does that worry you that if that doesn't go in Malta's favor, then programs in countries like yours will definitely then be?
Alexander: Yes, I'm really afraid of that. We've been stating them and communicated throughout the years that things are getting much more difficult by the day in Europe. And I believe what previously everyone was hunting for a new passport, hunting in a good sense of the word for a new passport. Now, the new passport is always a dream, almost a miracle almost something that can never be achieved or very difficult. And now I believe it's the era of the permanent residence permits in Europe, which are still good thing to have, very good thing. It's not a passport, it's not a citizenship, but it's still a good thing.
If Malta falls victim to that, I don't know. I really believe Europe will shut itself from any foreign, not really an influence, but from any foreigners who want to settle legally in the country by investment, or through investment activities, and things will get extremely difficult. I really hoped it will not go that far, but I believe it will. Because at the end of the day, it's the politicians who decide, they write the laws, and the courts only follow these laws. So if the politicians vote something different next year, the courts will have to make very harsh and different decisions based on these laws.
Salman: But Alex, is there any other defense that immigration experts like yourself can do? Like for example, their investment, immigration councils, their associations. Why don't we see them joining hands or joining the legal case together, or banding together to put up their case about how to hear your side of view at the commission or at other places? I mean, of course, they are doing that, they say that, but some consoles do say that they are putting up that viewpoint. Do you think there's still some more work that can be done this way?
Alexander: We in particular, we are doing a lot of efforts to fight against that. And I believe many of our colleagues are doing their share of that as well. But it's very difficult to fight the political sentiment on a central level like the European Commission that basically comprise of only few countries, it's extremely difficult. For example, we are fighting in court for our clients in order to gain some rights for them, and then during the court battle, there is a change in the legislation. How do you fight that? It's very difficult, it's very difficult and I believe if we are to succeed, we not only need to combine forces, which is a difficult thing to achieve, by the way, because you know, we are also competitors.
But the thinking in Europe should change towards more open policy to investment immigrants because investment immigrants are not the bad people. They are saying many times I said the oligarch's, the black money. I really don't like these, you know, money laundering, things like that. If there is no crime, how can you say there is money laundering? And they've put on a European level, everyone with resources is seen as a criminal, this is not a good thing. This is something that reminds me of the 1970 in the revolution in the USSR in Russia previously, and that all rich people were branded as enemies of the state. It is not as it should be rich, doesn't mean bad, and absolutely doesn't mean criminal. So my answer is that we have to fight together, legally, of course, through legal means, but it is and it will be very difficult.
Salman: Right now, Alex, we are coming to the end of our show, and I would like to leave on a positive note. So I would want to hear your outlook for the future where the kind of future that you want to see in Bulgaria and in Europe, and the kind of hopeful things that you would like to see in the program and how it can be achieved.
Alexander: Well, you put a smile on my face, I would like to see a policy of the European states more open to investment immigrants, probably with integration of those people into the society. I don't mind placing a condition for obtaining investment citizenship, to know the language to certain level of the country, to have some bonds with the country. This is a good thing because I don't like people who invest in something and never been to a country and getting a passport from that country. That's not fair, that's not good.
That this person doesn't look like being Bulgarian or Maltese or Cyprian. But some integration like language speaking certain minimum criteria in residence in the country should be accepted. But why not all European countries? All EU countries? Because by the way, when we say European we mean EU, the majority of customers are looking for EU passports and EU residence permit because it's allowed them visa-free and hassle-free travel among the other nations. And there are many other European countries which are still being accepted as a European and they are a European but not being part of the EU doesn't allow its citizens the same amount of freedom that the EU passport gives.
So what I would say is why not every EU country to have an investment citizenship program, investment residency program and with a certain degree of involvement of the applicant in the local society, speaking of the language which is a very good thing. And that's how I say it without the hassle without this feeling of being guilty for having the resources without these, we are clues from the officials to each and every investment citizenship applicant as being an oligarch or someone with the dirty black money. That's how I say the future. I hope one day we'll see that all together.
Salman: Well Alex, best of luck, and we'll see what happens in the future. And that's a positive note. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us. It was very enlightening to hear what's happening with your country's program. You gave us a broad perspective of the current state and of the future to expect some low moments of course there but also some hopeful notes there. So thank you so much for sharing us in this podcast.
Alexander: You're welcome, thank you so much.
Salman: You've been listening to the Investment Immigration Podcast by Uglobal.com. Join us again soon for more in-depth conversations, exploring investment immigration opportunities from around the world.

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