Salman Siddiqui: Welcome to the Investment Immigration podcast by Uglobal.com, with weekly in-depth interviews with the world's leading investment immigration professionals.

This is Salman Siddiqui from Berlin, and today we are going to talk about Greece's golden visa program and its fate.

There's been a lot of news about what's going to happen to the golden visa program in Greece, especially with what's happening in other countries in Europe, especially with what we've heard in Portugal and Ireland, as Greece is also heading down that path.

There's a lot of talk about the program these days. To help us unpack all of this, I have a very special guest today in our episode. Her name is Vasiliki Papaloi. She's a Greek immigration consultant and attorney with Papalois Associates law firm based in Athens. Welcome to the show, Vasiliki.

Vasiliki Papaloi: Thank you, Salman. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to speak about Greece's immigration policy and explain to our audience the strategy of Greece and investment opportunities.

Salman Siddiqui: Thank you so much. And let's get to the heart of the matter. So what can you tell us about the recent announcement to extend Greece's golden visa program? Is it just for another three months like they're saying?

Vasiliki Papaloi: The government announced the extension for a further three months till July 31st of 2023, and during this period, the investor can choose a property in Greece and pay a down payment of 10% to the seller and complete the purchase contract till the end of December 2023. So this means that the investor under the current policy of €250,000 can choose the property and finish the contract at the end of this year. This is the extension.

Salman Siddiqui: Before we talk about the minimum thresholds and the amount. Tell me a little bit more about this extension period. Why was this announcement made? What is the background of this? And also what happens after this extension period ends? Will the residency by investment program cease to exist in Greece eventually?

Vasiliki Papaloi: I believe the government wants to promote the program. There are many applications to many investors right now coming in Greece to find a property or they even choose from their countries online. They choose properties. So the government wants to promote and retain the golden visa.

So this is why they gave this extension. We believe that they may give more time for the new policy applies, but of course we don't believe that the program will cease. It's a modified date, but will exist. There is a lot of demand and development in Greece’s market because of this program. So it's a circle of economy. I don't believe the government wants to cease this.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. But the government at the moment has said that July 31st is the cutoff date, right?

Vasiliki Papaloi: Yeah. Let's say it's not cutoff date. It's the period that the investors have to choose the property. And there are like enough in the south or in the north or in Mykonos, Santorini, Saloniki, to give them the opportunity to choose a property.

Salman Siddiqui: Okay. All right. What happens after, say, three months after July 31st?

Vasiliki Papaloi: After July 31st, the new policy applies. Then the investor can choose the property in the areas in the center of Athens or north or south of Athens, at the price of €500,000. But still they can choose one or more properties in areas like Piraeus, which is by the sea near to the port or in the west of Athens or in areas out of Athens, that the properties where the price will be of €250,000. So the for these areas, the program doesn't change.

Only for certain areas there is the increase of the price to €500,000. And in these areas they can only buy one property. In the other areas they can buy 1 to 3.

Salman Siddiqui: I see. So basically what you're saying is that the options in terms of where you can invest in the country, that becomes limited after three months when the new policy applies, but the options will be there. It's not like it's coming to an end or something like that.

Vasiliki Papaloi: Exactly. The program is not going to stop.

Salman Siddiqui: Okay, great. So I want to understand why the Greek minister recently decided to increase the investment threshold to half a million in certain parts of Greece that you talked about. And he said something I read that the increase in the threshold might improve the affordability of real estate for Greeks. What did he mean by that? What's going on in Greece?

Vasiliki Papaloi: Actually, this is the goal of the government. And we have election in 21st of May, 2023. Due to the golden visa and the economic crisis Greece suffered over the last decade, many Greeks couldn't afford to buy properties.

Then the golden visa program came on in 2014 and more investors started coming Greece and invest buying properties. So we understand that the prices were highly increased. And over the years, there is a great development here; new constructions, renovations and many people working around this field of the industry.

But the salaries here in Greece are still low and many young people cannot afford buying a property. So the prime minister and the government wants to, let's say, give the sellers of the property the choice. Because when some investor comes from USA or from China and has a lot of money and can pay more for a property that increases the prices. So they want certain areas to have pathways to give opportunity to young people to afford buying a property.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. And this is a phenomena which is happening in other countries in Europe as well, if I'm not mistaken. I think in Portugal as well. The leader there cited gentrification as one of the reasons why he actually stopped the program, saying that similar thing that, you know, prices are becoming too high for local residents; they can't buy properties.

But it seems like it's something political that they're blaming the golden visa program for the state of the economy in the country. But from the investors point of view, certain parts of Greece will become more expensive for them to buy properties. But there's this lingering fear, of course, in the market that maybe eventually they will decide that, oh, maybe we should stop the program. Because if you're saying that it's bad for the locals, then you're blaming the program. Then eventually investor confidence will not be there in the program. What do you think?

Vasiliki Papaloi: I don't believe so, because Greece wants to attract new investment. This is why I don't believe that the program will stop and the people who have money will invest even in the areas that are higher. And anyway, you know, the prices are very high right now, but also comparing to other parts of the world, the housing construction in Greece is very strong and of good quality.

Plus, Greece is a touristic country. There is always a big attraction for investors to have a residence or to create new business in Greece, like hotels or Airbnbs. There are many people who invest in Greece in real estate and they don't want the golden visa, but they do due to the profit right now.

Salman Siddiqui: Let's talk a little bit about what are you advising your clients; people who approach you who are closely following these developments in Greece. Are you telling them that they should apply for golden residency without delay, or should they wait for more clarity on the government's plans?

Vasiliki Papaloi: I believe they should apply now if they are ready and they want to invest. They should apply now to gain the benefit of the current policy.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. And the benefit would be what?

Vasiliki Papaloi: The benefit is that you can choose any property you like in any area of Athens. One or more properties. So of course, the price is lower right now.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. So about the minimum investment threshold when it increases to half a million in certain parts. Can you tell like where exactly will increase? Will it apply to all types of real estate investments in parts of Greece? Could you elaborate on that?

Vasiliki Papaloi: The price increase will be in the center of Athens, so it will be in the south with areas, which are by the sea there. Very nice area. Many rich people live there, and also in the northern part of Athens.

But there are various areas that are under €250,000 that will remain at the price of €250,000 are still very good and upcoming areas. They are developed, and it's real. It's very nice. Some areas in the west and the east of Athens, which are by the sea and many people have their vacation home there. The areas that are going to increase, you know, are the most popular right now. They're not overcrowded, but there are many people who choose these areas.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. And are there any restrictions expected? Like, for example, only, you know, residential real estate can be bought? Or can we also buy the investor buy commercial property like hotels?

Vasiliki Papaloi: We can buy any kind of property, commercial or residential. There is no restriction on that. Although the venue policy in the areas of €500,000, we can buy only one property. But in the areas that will remain at the price of 250, they can buy as many properties as they want as it is now.

Salman Siddiqui: I see. Thank you for clarifying that. Those are very important points. I want to also now touch upon what we were talking a little before about, you know, what's happening in the neighborhood of Greece, in other countries in Europe, especially what we saw in Portugal and Ireland, where programs have closed down largely because, well, they cite domestic politics, but also because how the European Commission has cited national security or security as a reason to come after certain programs.

Does this concern you? Is this something at the back of your mind that Greece's golden residency program might eventually fall under the gaze of the European Commission in the future?

Vasiliki Papaloi: I believe that every EU member, every country has its autonomy. Those are the rules of the European Union. So if Greece believes that the program is attractive and useful for new investments, the European Commission cannot decide the path of the program. So this is a governmental decision and not an EU decision. Of course, we cannot know what will happen in ten years. Nobody can reassure you, but I strongly believe that the program will continue. It may be modified in the future, but I don't think it will stop.

Salman Siddiqui: Okay, that's very encouraging words and I'm sure a lot of our listeners would be happy to hear what you said. Now let's also talk about the interest shown by American investors in Greece's Golden visa program over the years. Could you share some details about that? Is it true that more and more Americans have been applying for the Golden Visa program, and what motivates them to consider Greece as opposed to other options in Europe?

Vasiliki Papaloi: Yeah, this is true. We have many Americans that are attracted for this program. So they choose to buy property also in the in the Greek islands because it's really beautiful. It's so nice to spend your vacation here with the weather and the sea and the food and the people. It's a very overwhelming country. You feel like you are in your home. So Americans were always traveling in Greece a lot. So I believe this is the main reason for them to choose our country.

Plus the investment goal; because they can have a profit from the investment in Greece and they can buy a property in lower price rather than in USA; real estate is cheaper here.

Salman Siddiqui: Yes, compared to the US, I mean, a lot of people would find some attractive options. This is something which people in other European countries also say to me, especially Portugal and Malta, that it's very attractive destination, it's very beautiful and all that. But for example, language barrier is something which always scares people off. Do you hear that from American investors? How big of a challenge is that?

Vasiliki Papaloi: Many foreigners are in our country right now. 1% to 5% will learn Greek because it's a difficult language. They don't need to learn because everyone speaks English here in Greece, especially the younger generation.  For investors, their children go to private English schools, but they also choose to learn Greek. The children learn Greek. But again, when you are a child, it's easier. But from my clients, none of them is interested in learning Greek. And many of them have started their own companies here and they don't need to learn Greek.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. And talking about your clients, could you tell me, over the years, how that has changed for you? Have you seen more people from the US coming or more people from China or has that gone down? People from China are now applying less in certain countries. For example, I heard once that people from Turkey recently have been applying a lot in other destinations. What have you observed if you could share?

Vasiliki Papaloi: China is always a strong majority. Over the years, due to the population, they are always on the top of the list. But of course, Turkey and USA citizens also apply for the golden visa. As a law firm, we mainly represent Chinese citizens and a small majority of US citizens. But the last years, before the restrictions and the crisis with Ukraine, many Russians also have also invested in Golden Visa.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. It must be a bit challenging for Russian clients? I was interviewing somebody from Portugal in our previous episodes and they were saying that, yeah, these days it's even difficult for them to open a bank account because of the restrictions. Do you face many challenges when you have to handle clients from Russia or Belarus?

Vasiliki Papaloi: Actually, when we have a request from a Russian client that he wants to invest in Greece for a golden visa, we can’t help because they cannot get the golden visa. So we don't have Russian clients right now. They can only apply for digital nomad visa; there are restrictions with that.

Salman Siddiqui: I see in that that companies, and law firms like yours lose business, isn't it?

Vasiliki Papaloi: Yes, of course. And Russians are probably not happy with the policy of their country or they want to leave for their own reasons. So this is a barrier.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. So you already have mentioned that mostly your clients have been Chinese. But have there been any other applicants from different parts of the world that have surprised you recently who are showing more interest, which you didn't perhaps before?

Vasiliki Papaloi: Yes. Vietnamese are coming in Greece to invest the golden visa, which in the past was rare.

Salman Siddiqui: And why do you think this is happening? Like, what are your Vietnamese clients telling you and is it easy for them to adjust in Greece?

Vasiliki Papaloi: When you want to have an option to leave the country easily; they want to have this option. And I cannot tell you for sure how they adapt here because I don't have any client who lives here right now. They come and go. So I cannot share an experience. I mean, from a client's perspective right now, and I have many clients from China that decide to live in Greece.

Salman Siddiqui: I see. Okay. Thank you for sharing that. Let's also talk about something that you mentioned before about digital nomad visa. How is that going for Greece? If you could tell us and also share with our listeners who perhaps don't know much about Greece's digital nomad program, about the taxes they have to pay on their global incomes; what are the incentives for them?

Vasiliki Papaloi: I've been accepting more and more requests by clients to apply for the digital nomad visa. If I was in their position, I would think about it. You know, it's a very attractive option and the government has facilitated this a lot.

Obviously, Greece wants to attract digital nomads over the years. The process is easy if you meet the requirements, the minimum income per person is €1,500 salary per month, which would increase if you have a wife and children by 20% and 50% accordingly. And they have to have a contract with the company which allows them to work remotely. So the process is easier and they can enter Greece with touristic visa and they don't need to apply for a national visa.

Salman Siddiqui: And they can stay for one year.

Vasiliki Papaloi: This visa is renewed every two years. They can stay two years. And about the tax now, the tax issue, according to the Greek law, when you are a non-tax resident, you don't pay taxes in Greece.

So when we are registered here and we issue a tax, the Greek backside, they are considered as tax resident abroad. So their income is going to be taxed in their home country or where they pay their taxes.

But if they decide that they will stay in Greece, they have to do a process with the tax office to declare that they are Greeks tax residents. And of course, they would have to declare their tax, their income. But the government wants to have some tax benefits for digital nomads if they transfer their taxes in Greece. For every case, this is different.

When we have to, we consult the tax consultants in Greece, because if they start a paranormal activity here or they have some special tax issues, they have to consult a lawyer and the tax consultant in Greece. But at the beginning they are not taxed.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. Thank you for clarifying that. And I want to also talk a little bit about the visa processing times in Greece. So these days, if you could share with our listeners, if somebody applies for a Golden visa application today or even if it's a digital nomad visa today, how much time does it take to process that application? Do they have to face long waits or months?

Vasiliki Papaloi: It's very easy right now because we have online system and after we finish the contract and registering the language, the office, we do some the legal paperwork. Let's say the lawyer can apply online and at the same day we apply, they receive a white paper with which they can travel from their country to Greece without a visa, and they can stay in Greece as long as their application is being processed by the immigration office. So they have just to come in Greece and give fingerprints within the period of 12 months upon the application.

Upon giving the biometrics, they can get the visa within two, three, or four months. It depends on the work volume and the amount of the application. So it's it has been improved over the years because there was a delay in the last years. But now with the online application, it's really fast. They first get the temporary residence card still, and then they get the permanent residence card.

Salman Siddiqui: Okay, great. And we are coming to the end of our show, Vasiliki. So before we go, I'm going to give you 30 seconds more if you want to talk a little bit more. You've already clarified the important point that the golden visa program of Greece is still alive and kicking and there's still time to utilize the incentives that the current program offers before the deadline ends in three months.

So 30 seconds, you have to speak to investors around the world. What's your pitch to them?

Vasiliki Papaloi: I'd say to them that Greece is a wonderful country and they should invest in Greece if they have the capacity. There is still time to do it under the current policy. And I believe, however, that Greece has Greece is a magical country that whoever comes here feels like they’re at home, their hearts feels like at home.

So this is why I believe that many people want, apart from the investors, to stay here, to have that quality of life. And I hear that from every client that it is working. It's not only creating wealth, but it's also quite a good life. Greece balances these two things.

Salman Siddiqui: Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us and clarifying so many important points about Greece's golden visa program. We've come to the end of our show and I want to, in the end also shout out to our listeners to stay tuned to our show. There will be more episodes about more programs from around the world. Thank you and stay tuned.

Vasiliki Papaloi: Thank you very much.

Salman Siddiqui: You've been listening to the Investment Immigration podcast by Uglobal.com. Join us again soon for more in-depth conversations exploring investment immigration opportunities from around the world.

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