Stacey Ann Aberdeen: If you want the ability to travel visa free to a number of countries and that is your main interest or that's your desire. My advice would be to take the donation route, which is the sustainable development route. However, if your desire is to relax near the ocean, in your villa, in your property, you've purchased a piece of paradise which you could hold onto or you could have for generations to come, then my advice to you is to invest in the real estate. It all depends on what the individual is looking for.

Salman Siddiqui: Welcome to the Investment Immigration podcast by Uglobal.com with weekly in-depth interviews with the world's leading investment immigration professionals. Welcome to the Investment Immigration podcast. I'm your host, Salman Siddiqui, and today we are going to focus on the CBI program in Saint Kitts and Nevis. Lots of people don't know much about the country because it's a very small Caribbean country, but its CBI program is actually very popular with a lot of people. And the reason why it's popular? What are the advantages for it? We have somebody who is going to help us unpack all of that today. My guest is Stacy Anne Aberdeen. She's the attorney and founder of Aberdeen Law and she's based in Saint Kitts. Welcome to the show, Stacy.

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: Thank you for having me.

Salman Siddiqui: Now, for those who don't know much about the CBI program, could you explain what the investment immigration program is and how it works?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: Okay. So the Saint Kitts and Nevis Citizenship by Investment Program is actually one of the oldest citizenship program in the world, having started in back in 1984. So next year it's going to be 40 years old. Wow.

Salman Siddiqui: That's a lot of time.

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: Yes. And there's a reason why it has this longevity. It's clearly because it's a good program.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. And you've been with this program like mean for how many years now? You've been.

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: Since 2011. Wow.

Salman Siddiqui: Okay. And since 2011, a lot of changes have happened to the program. Like, for example, the there's this sustainable fund option. What is that about?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: Yes. So this the Sustainable Diversification Fund. It's actually a donation to the government of Saint Kitts and Nevis whereby the investors do need a significant amount of money to assist in the infrastructure of the economy and other important aspects. So the funds that are deposited by investment are used to basically assist the economy and improve in itself.

Salman Siddiqui: And this came out like recently, isn't it, like 2018 or 2019?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: Yes, it's about three years old now.

Salman Siddiqui: I want to go back to you were talking about the 40 year history of the program. So what was happening between all that time and correct me if I'm wrong, the country gained its independence in 1983. Right. So was it launched like soon after that?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: It definitely was. And the previous founders of the program, they realized that the economy could have been assisted by outwards or rather, yes, outward investment, because the island of Saint Kitts and Nevis, one of their main source of income, is that of tourism. For those of you who have ever visited, you all would see the reason why so many people visit. And we encourage people who have not that they definitely should come and see a little bit of Paradise. That's true. It's literally breathtaking.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. And the program for Saint Kitts and Nevis, correct me if I'm wrong, before the country's history, if you look at it, the main industry was the sugar industry and now it's tourism and CBI program, isn't it?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: Correct. So we are talking about the Sustainable Development Fund and I made reference to it being a donation to assist the economy. The previous name of the fund was the Sugar Diversification Fund, and it stemmed from the economy based mostly on the sugar industry. But as years pass, you tend to see that there was less and less development or production of sugar and a trend that started towards going tourism. And as you can see, we're in 2023 and it’s the main source of income for the island. So I should say the jurisdiction is that of tourism as well as the citizenship by investment program.

Salman Siddiqui: I see. And this fund option that you talk about. So where does the government put this money into? What is it using it for?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: It does a special account that is designated for this money and as I said previously, the Government and Parliament, they use funds from or use the money or the proceeds from these funds to basically assist in any aspect of the economy of Saint Kitts and Nevis, whether it be healthcare. It all depends. There are people in government that are designated with that responsibility to put forward proposals as to which side or which part of the economy requires certain amount of injection of funds and it would be given accordingly.

Salman Siddiqui: I see. And what are the other options in CBI program apart from this fund?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: There's also the real estate option and there are two tenants to this real estate option an investor. If they are considering purchasing property in Saint Kitts, they could purchase a freehold and buy a freehold. I mean a single unit. It could be a condo, it could be a villa, it could be a house, and they could purchase it for the sum minimum. $400,000. There's also the aspect that if they choose to purchase like a share option, meaning that they don't have full ownership, but they share it with other owners, the minimum is 200,000 USD.

Salman Siddiqui: Okay. And since we are talking about the minimum investment thresholds already, correct me if I'm wrong. Is this true that the current minimum investment threshold amount, it's gone down to $125,000 for a few months?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: Yes. So on January 1st, the current head of citizenship by investment, Mr. Michael Martin, introduced a limited time offer. This was to attract some more investors, having had the program on the market for a while now and we are competing with some other markets, they thought it prudent to give people who are interested in the economy of Saint Kitts and Nevis a little incentive. So between January 1st, 2023 and July 30th, 2023, there's a limited time offer in which the donation amount under the Sustainable Growth Fund, it's $125,000. However, on the 1st of July, that amount is going back to the $150,000.

Salman Siddiqui: I see. And are you seeing a lot of applicants for this? Is there a rush?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: There has been a lot of traction in the market because who doesn't like a good deal, you know?

Salman Siddiqui: So what happens after July 1st? You said it goes back to 150,000 and. Are there new restrictions coming in place or something else is going to happen or is just the minimum investment threshold amount increases?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: Well, you know, the citizenship program has been improving significantly over the past years and they will continuously continue to improve the product. Right now, we have no knowledge of any other changes that are going to take place as of July 1st, but we are constantly updated if that is going to take place. As of now, the only change that we are aware of is that the minimum investment amount is going to change back to $150,000. I see.

Salman Siddiqui: And you also mentioned the government, which is currently led by your prime minister, Terrance Drew. And he was recently appointed, right? He came into power last year. So for our listeners who don't really understand how the program works in the country, so the government has a unit, it comes directly under the Prime Minister. Is that how the structure works?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: That is correct. So the Prime Minister was appointed as the head of the Citizenship by Investment Unit and he is steered by his supporting cabinet members underneath the citizenship by investment unit. There is a head which is the CEO, and in this case it's going to be it is Mr. Michael Martin. And he is the head of the citizenship by investment unit. So him and Dr. Drew, they meet heads and they discuss the direction of the citizenship by investment unit. And this also falls under the umbrella of the Ministry of Finance.

Salman Siddiqui: I see. So for an investor who is looking into take advantage of the program, how will they go about applying? Do they find all of this information at a government approved website where they can see who the accredited lawyers are?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: You are definitely right. There is the government approved website which has a list of all the approved service providers as well as international marketing agents. There's also a list of all the approved developments if you're interested in real estate. So if you click on the link, you'd be able or you'd be directed to the requisite division. I see the citizenship by investment unit do not speak to applicants directly. That's why you have the approved developers, the approved service providers and the approved international marketing agents. So if any query is directed directly at the Citizenship by Investment unit, they usually refer the person or the individual to their website, which has the listed names of these approved persons.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. Thank you for clarifying that point because, you know, a lot of investors want to be sure that they are taking the right approach.

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: And that's very important because it's a lot of money that you're looking to invest in acquiring a citizenship. And I expect persons will be doing their due diligence on the persons that they are hiring or employing to get the citizenship process done for them or completed.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. And what kind of due diligence is performed on applicants during the application process?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: It's actually a very, very robust program. And Saint Kitts and Nevis due diligence has consistently been improving over the years. As a matter of fact, I understand that it's conducted by a large European and North American company of highest repute. I'm not at liberty to disclose the name, but  as a service provider and international marketing agent, that is the information we have received.

Salman Siddiqui: And the reason why I'm asking is because, as you know, already, there's a lot of spotlight on a lot of programs around the world, especially with what we've seen in Europe recently, where the European Commission has basically clamped down on certain programs. And there's also this news about how Caribbean programs are also under pressure. Given that background, what has changed in the due diligence process? I mean, we hear these words like the process is more robust, but what has been done to make it stronger? Do the investors have to provide more documentation?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: Well, as we all know, the there's a standard list of documentation that is required. The authorities in Saint Kitts also require that if the documents that are requested are not in English, we require them to be translated into English. We require to be notarized or certified by a notary public or an attorney or someone at a bank of high standing. And this is a way in which they have ensured that the documentation that is provided is from a legitimate source. So that is one area in which the authorities has enhanced its due diligence. It's not a matter of just simply sending some documents that are u-translated, that are un-notarized, you know, as simple as that, simple as it sounds. That is an important process because we are trying to confirm the veracity and authenticity of these documents that are being provided and which we pass on to the due diligence companies which they use in order to complete their due diligence process.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. What's your view on the European Commission piling pressure on Caribbean countries offering CBI programs? I mean, you mentioned that the due diligence process has been made more robust. What other changes can be expected in the program in the future?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: I think it's a political question and it would be rather a matter for the governments to discuss because we won't know what exactly would be the plans later on. In our opinion, Saint Kitts and Nevis was not needed or there was no need to pressure them by the government, as it has been consistently ranked at its top tier in terms of its due diligence. So when these discussions or these news articles come out, it's because Saint Kitts has already taken its stand. They have already put checks and balances into place. So there was nothing surprising about it.

Salman Siddiqui: I see. Okay. That's a very nicely put. There was nothing surprising about it, but I'm talking in terms of you as a business, does it make your job difficult in this current environment? You know, I've been talking to a lot of people in all over the world, and they feel this pressure on them now. This wasn't there initially. They are happy that it's becoming more transparent. The processes are becoming clearer, but there's this general impression that it's becoming difficult. So did you experience that?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: I won't say it has become more difficult or our job has just increased in terms of ensuring that all our checks and balances are done correctly, even as service providers and international marketing agents. You know, we have to undertake certain tasks to come to ensure that our status is maintained. We are dealing with individuals from all over the world, people that we haven't met face to face. We are interacting based on an email or in some case a video. So in terms of what is required of the government for us as service providers and what we require of our clients, in my personal opinion, I do not think it's a difficult task that we are asking and the Government is asking of us, because in order to maintain this caliber or this product of issuing this, what I what in my opinion is a magnificent citizenship, you know, we are supposed to do our proper due diligence.

Salman Siddiqui: Let's now also talk about the impact of the pandemic has been on the program. We saw that a lot of countries programs actually got a boost during the pandemic. A lot of people realize the importance of having a secured citizenship. Did that trend also happen in Saint Kitts? And what are you seeing now?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: Oh, yes, definitely. There was a lot of traction gained during COVID. You know, everyone was realizing that the world is greater. There are things there are opportunities out there. Having a second passport can open the doors to generations to come. Saint Kitts and Nevis definitely was in line with that. We tend to have seen a trend towards a lot of European, a lot of Russians. And I know because I say the Russians, we are going to come to a follow up question with that. But it was a good thing. Covid was a good thing in a way. I tend to focus more on the positive as opposed to the negative aspects of it. And because of the nature of the process that's involved with the application for citizenship by investment, the fact that we were at our homes and we weren't able to come out and move around as we could, you know, people were still able to provide the documentation. They were able to still send the packages with the files, scan the documents.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. But did you see an increase? And what are you seeing now, now that COVID is, you know, going down everywhere? Things are becoming sort of what they say pre-pandemic times. Is the trend increasing?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: I don't think it has plateaued. I think there is still traction there. It's not as much as during COVID persons have gotten back to their regularly scheduled program, but there is still interest and some of these interests, whereas I found during COVID, people would follow through with their interest much faster. Right now there is sort of a delay. You would get an inquiry here and there probably a couple of weeks will pass and then they would respond. Whereas in COVID they wanted a response like urgently. So that's the difference I'm seeing.

Salman Siddiqui: I see. Okay. And since Stacy, you've been part of the program for so many years, you could also share with our listeners about the trends, the different trends you've seen in terms of the applicants who have applied for the program. Have you seen any shift, say, over the past ten years that certain countries applicants are applying more or have gone down? And what are you seeing?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: Okay. When I first got involved with the citizenship program, I saw a lot of Asian nationals applying for citizenship back then. This was prior to 2014, one of the visa free countries that Saint Kitts and Nevis citizenship would have given access to applicants would have been to the jurisdiction of Canada. I know that was an attraction for the Asian market and since we lost that privilege back in 2014, I did see a decrease in the number of applicants from the Asian market that was interested in the citizenship. We, however, saw an increase in the market from the Middle East, and then again we had the Iranians ,Iraqis. Then because of the bonds that were issued, we saw a decrease. Again, as recent as last year, there was an increase, I should say, a substantial increase in the number of Russian and Belarusian applicants that we received. And when the ban came, which was across the board, you know, internationally, the governments were faced with this issue that hasn't in my opinion been fully resolved. So that's the trend that I've seen since I've been involved in this program. Also, too, in recent years, I would think in the last three, three years, I saw more of the US applicants applying for citizenship by investment.

Salman Siddiqui: That's very interesting. And before we get to that, I have to, of course ask the follow up question of how you are dealing with this tricky line of dealing with Russian applicants, Belarusian applicants, because this has been in the news and a lot of people are struggling, firms like yours; they're struggling with this. Yes. So how do you deal with this and what do you propose as a solution? You know.

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: We have been informed by the authorities that those that were in the pipeline, meaning that they were processed and approved, the government was on the verge to providing their certificate of registration as well as their requisite passport. But due to the issues that they were facing with the other juristic addictions, they are basically at a standstill right now. Right at the end of February into March, I sat down with Mr. Martin one on one while we were in Dubai at the conference there, and he basically was letting us know like, yes, there are issues. Yes, they are trying to resolve it. But the main concern is the returning of funds to these Russian applicants. The banks are refusing to touch any funds that would have to be returned to Russia. And that is the difficulty they are facing until a plausible a realistic solution is arrived at. Their hands are basically tied at this moment. I believe the solution might be in the near future that some new legislation would have to come into play whereby the service providers may be the one place with the responsibility of returning the funds that were submitted. But again, that was not the process on which the government acquired it so legislation will have to be implemented or probably created for such to to take place now.

Salman Siddiqui: And these restrictions are, like you mentioned just a little earlier, that it's not really new. You've seen it what happened with the Iranians, with Iraqis during the wars at that time? What is different now from that? And you know that’s what happened in the past. So you're in a better position to tell us.

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: I think it's with all trends. It's not only the Saint Kitts and Nevis. We know all citizenship by investment program has banned the Russians and Belarusians. I do think that the checks and balances and the due diligence and the requirements that were completed in order for them to even be successful in this in the first place should carry a larger, for want of a better word, a larger burden for the greater countries to place such a ban. You know, within these applicants, there are persons with proper backgrounds, persons who would have passed the most rigorous or robust of due diligence examination. And because of a generalized ban, they are subject to to it, which I'm, frankly, I'm going to say it's unfair. However, that's the policy and we have to follow through with. But having them wait in the wind just waiting for response, I really don't feel that's fair. I am not in their position. I'm fortunate enough to be on the other side of it, of course. But I could also empathize with their situation. You know, some of these people, they don't agree what's going on in their country. And they have tried to have an alternative, but they are being blocked due to some political stance made by other countries.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. And it's a very tricky line. You have nothing to do with the politics of any country.

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: Oh, yes. What I do appreciate it is Mr. Martin's engagement. He has always been open to discussions with us. He has always responded to our emails, our queries when it comes to this tricky situation. And we as service providers and international marketing agents, we really appreciate his involvement because having bad news is better than having no news at all. And for that, we appreciate Mr. Martin's responsibility in responding to our client's queries and concerns.

Salman Siddiqui: Okay. Moving on, let's now also talk about what you mentioned earlier is about the interest of American applicants. Now, from what my understanding was, usually Americans come to Saint Kitts on their cruise ships for day tours and for tourism most of the time. But what have you observed in your experience now there? What's the advantage for them to get a passport from St Kitts.

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: In my experience, my US clientele, they are interested in having this nomadic lifestyle and having that citizenship of Saint Kitts and Nevis allows them to have that. One particular couple, we are friends to this day, acquired their citizenship. His wife is Kenyan by birth and she was not interested in getting the US citizenship. She wanted the Saint Kitts and Nevis citizens. They wanted the Saint Kitts and Nevis citizenship. And it was for them to have the mobility to move here and there. I know since they acquired their citizenship back in 2020, they are living in Saint Kitts and Nevis and they travel to the other Caribbean islands weekly, I should say, because they have a small little propeller plane that they use and they hop around to the different islands. And given the nature of their job, they are both specialists by profession. They are able to spend time in each of these jurisdictions and, you know, support the economy of these jurisdictions. And this is what having a Saint Kitts and Nevis passport does.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. That's a very interesting story. But are you seeing more of this trend of nomads, digital nomads, looking to move to Saint Kitts?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: Yes, the older United States citizens, I've seen a trend. They you know, you've worked all these years acquiring all these assets. And as you get older in life, especially those who live in the colder states, they tend to want to have live in the Caribbean islands where the weather is more welcoming. And as you get older, they're able to relax. Those are the trends that we are seeing. The more I don't want to say the word senior citizen or the more seasoned United States citizens are the ones that are trending towards living in the islands as they get older, and that's why they are acquiring their citizenship. I have also been asked about renunciation of their US citizenship and I have given them advice that they should speak to immigration or rather US citizenship specialists attorney because I didn't want to over tread and give them advice that was unwarranted.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. And you mentioned a very important point because a lot of people face difficulty in renouncing their citizenship, especially from the US. It's not an easy process. And if you could also talk a little bit more about the digital nomads, if they are moving in into Saint Kitts as a second destination, because this was a trend which was happening post pandemic in a lot of countries. Do you see many people from industry coming to the country?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: Yes. Once they have a proper supply of Internet, they have been moving. And the clients that I was speaking about earlier, a lot of their friends have expressed interest to them in acquiring Saint Kitts and Nevis citizenship because of what they have been showing. They have a very active social media page and they simply say, we are living our best life.

Salman Siddiqui: That's a great story. And Stacy, we're coming close to the end of our show. But before we go that I would also like you to talk about the SDF option, the fund option and the real estate option. What are you advising people to go for and what has been the trend? Do people go more for the fund option or is it easier to buy real estate?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: I always ask people tp tell me what they want. If you want the ability to travel visa free to a number of countries and that is your main interest or that's your desire. My advice would be to take the donation route, which is the sustainable development route. However, if your desire is to relax near the ocean, in your villa, in your property, you have purchased a piece of paradise which you could hold onto or you could have for generations to come. Then my advice to you is to invest in the real estate. It all depends on what the individual is looking for.

Salman Siddiqui: Right? But how easy is it to buy real estate? Though?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: The process is pretty simple. Usually if your service provider is an attorney, then the process is straightforward because they are the ones that would assist you in acquiring the transfer documents. So that's a part that's another aspect of the service that they would be able to provide. I will say, however, it does take a little longer to acquire citizenship by investment in terms of the real estate aspect of it, because then you have closings, you have to register the property, you have all these taxes to pay. You have to ensure that the property is up to the standard and whether it qualifies as an approved development under the citizenship by investment unit. So those little nuances make that aspect of the process a little longer than just the donation. Whereas the donation you satisfy the due diligence requirements, you submit it once your due diligence comes back clean with any without any red tags, then you're able to acquire citizens.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. And how much time is it taking these days?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: To these days, we have approximately 3 to 5 months for citizenship by investment. As you know, Saint Kitts and Nevis does have the accelerated process, which basically guarantees that your application will be processed within a period of 60 to 90 days.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. And you're talking about the fund option or you're talking about the real estate option here, the.

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: The fund option.

Salman Siddiqui: Right. And for the real estate, it will take around a year then?

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: Not necessarily it will. However, it would be pushed closer to the 90 days. The difference is that you will not be able to get or you could in some cases, if you push really hard, you will be able to get your title documents within that 90 days, but you will acquire your certificate of registration and your passport within that accelerated period of time. It's just you'll have a little wait for the originating documents of the title.

Salman Siddiqui: Thank you so much for sharing that, Stacy. We're coming to the end of the show and before we go that I'll give you 30s to make your pitch for Saint Kitts. And in that, I would like you to also tell our listeners why they should consider Saint Kitts and not the other options there in the Caribbean because as you know, there are so many other options to look for.

Stacey Ann Aberdeen: As I have stated before, Saint Kitts and Nevis, it's a gem. It's a piece of sugar. In the Caribbean, we have a sugar city, Saint Kitts. It's one of the oldest citizenship programs in the world. And there's a reason why we are still there. I advise you, if you are willing and you're able, you will have zero regret. If you invest in the Saint Kitts and Nevis Citizenship by Investment Program.

Salman Siddiqui: Thank you so much for your time, Stacey. This was wonderful. You've clarified a lot of points for us and I'm sure a lot of listeners would be keen to at least visit if not invest in Saint Kitts. And shout out to our listeners that please stay tuned. We'll be having more analysis and in-depth interviews from people in the Caribbean. So thank you and stay tuned. You've been listening to the Investment Immigration podcast by Uglobal.com. Join us again soon for more in-depth conversations exploring investment immigration opportunities from around the world.

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