Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: If you have a very good project which is really important to Australia or that particular region, and that particular authority which is assigned to approve it, that's it. You can instantly have it for five years. And if you establish the business in five years and you have a minimal time after, some question arise; you should have some minimum turnover; you should have around AUD 600,000 turnover or you should employ two people, a few categories you have to maintain.

Salman Siddiqui: Welcome to the Investment Immigration podcast by you Uglobal.com, with weekly in-depth interviews with the world's leading investment immigration professionals. Welcome to another episode of the Investment Immigration podcast brought to you by Uglobal. I'm your host, Salman Siddiqui. In this episode we are going to focus on Australia. Now Australia's investment immigration program is expected to have a lot of changes, especially by the end of this year. This comes after the government made some announcements about an overhaul in May, and this concerns mainly with the business innovation and investment program stream that they have there, which is also known as Stream 188. So in this episode we're going to talk about these expected changes which are going to come soon. And what does this mean especially for entrepreneurs and startup founders. And also we're going to touch on the global talent stream that they have. And what does this mean for highly skilled workers who are interested to move to Australia? So to discuss all of this, I have a very special guest. His name is Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan. He is an immigration lawyer who specializes in Australia's immigration program. He also actually does specialization in New Zealand's program too. And he's joining us at the moment all the way from India. So welcome to the show, Venkat.

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: Thank you sir. Thank you very much.

Salman Siddiqui: Thank you. So, Venkat. If you could explain to our listeners firstly what's going on with the expected changes that we are hearing. That's going to come soon in Australia's Business and Innovation stream. If you could give us a sense of the changes that are expected this year.

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: Yes. It's a very good question pertaining at the moment, because a business innovation visa is a very prominent resource for Australia. Every year they used to give at least 5000 visas. All of a sudden, with the recent reports from the industry, what they heard from the experts had provided them an insight that this is not working exactly the way they wanted. Actually, although there are, almost 5000 visas have been granted. So the government this year, in fact, they could not actually release many visas already on the pipeline. People have already applied and they have not yet granted. And then this year they just way they reduced it to only 4900 visas this year. It actually it looks like as though it's carried over from the previous year.

This year all the states have not been allocated any seats at all. That means very clearly that the government is going to totally revamp the whole 188 subclass 188 visa structure, as we know we have for visas in that, and they are definitely going to change in that, especially for some of these dreams. And this visa may not be there at all. That's the new thinking about.

But we do not know exactly what it is, but we are sure it's going to be out and it's going to a new systems is going to come. That is for sure; it may happen by December or by June. All these new schemes will come as a standard procedure in Australia whenever they implement the new rules. So in case they could not implement much before this, they might implement in July. That's what everybody is expecting.

Salman Siddiqui: I see. Okay. And just for our listeners, if you could explain what this means. So the business Innovation and investment program stream the 188 subclass. Are we saying that it's going to be a reform or there are changes expected, or do you think it's going to be scrapped? This will be like and then something new will come in.

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: We presume that something new will come. They cannot end a total investment route. That may not be the option they are looking at. They might scrap off what exactly needed in the current situation. They may introduce a brand new one with new system, new ways of investment. That's what they're going to be there. That's what my presumption is because 180 subclass has already got four streams. When they have not allocated anything, even for the investment visas, they have not allocated any seats this time. So that simply means that they're going to revamp the whole thing. Probably it might even be called a different visa name.

It might be called a different name just to ensure that they are looking at it differently, just to ensure that people do not get confused with the existing old one, because people already applied some of them. So that could be the scenario. That's what I'm thinking of.

Salman Siddiqui: And given these changes that are going to happen in Australia's program. So then the question then comes in, firstly, what will happen to the existing applicants who are applying for the streams right now?

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: Very good question. Because the currently there are two types of scenarios are there. One is some people who applied only for the UAI and others who have actually applied for the visa. Those who applied for the visa definitely to be processed. No problem with that. However, it can take some time because it's on the queue. They will be processing according to the queue those who applied first, so that can take some time, but they need not worry because they have already applied for the visa.

On the other hand, those who applied for the UAI. Yes, unfortunately that may not be considered to be a very honest view that actually whatever they applied for the UAI because there is no place allocated now, so they may have to come back and reapply. Expression of interest whenever new systems coming or new visa is introduced. The currently, you can still apply the online procedure. Still accepting. But unfortunately there is no place allocated to the state government as this 188 visa. The investment visa is actually state nominated. You need to get a state nomination first when there is no place allocated to any state. Where are you going to pick picked up at all? It's not going to happen. So unfortunately, these people who are on the UAI stage may have to reapply, come back again. On the other hand, those already applied, they can have a sense of relief because nothing going to happen with them. Because one thing is that whatever the rules, when they apply, they get a factual application lodged will be applicable to them. So that way, if they satisfy that one, they need not really worry about it actually.

Salman Siddiqui: Speaking a little bit more of these changes, you touched upon this earlier in your remarks. Why is this coming? I want to understand from you what was the need to change all of this? Wasn't the system working or how is it going to improve?

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: Everybody is wondering why it is happening so far. Why should it this happen now all of a sudden it's going on? Well, there are 5000 visas and people are investing at least five up to AUD5 million or 2 to 2.5 million. It's a very good investment. But some of the reports are found out that it is not really working. I can tell you an example, just although it's not really good, but I have to tell an example from my own client. This client has got actually 30 million cases, which doesn't. Money is not a problem for this client is from Nepal. I'm sorry if he's listening to this, but he could not really. Although he got the visa obviously, he will get the visa or they got the visa. He could not really find a proper investment. There is been there for two years. He could not really come and do something there. So this is a question which a well-seasoned entrepreneur who has developed AUD30 million, he's got his own various enterprising businesses in Nepal. Then imagine probably with a lesser level of experience, who are reasonably new entrepreneurs, let us assume, is just last few years only he's been an entrepreneur himself, and now he's trying to enter into a new country and he could not cope up with the required. Because you have only four years to complete your basics.

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: To become the permanent resident, you are given initially only a temporary resident visa. So two things happen. Either these people could not invest properly during that time, or understand that chances are lost because the four years they have to come back, they cannot do anything else unless they are eligible for some other visa, they will not qualify to become the permanent. So really a tricky situation because people have not done proper study or they are little bit wondering how to invest. They do not know. They may have big cultural shock. They will not find out initially. Now, for example, the investor visa says you invest in particular forum, you invest in this upcoming new enterprises, you invest in the early stage of public limited companies, and then you can invest in well-established companies. That's up to you. You are given choice. But that being said, how many people are having the knowledge which is the best developing entrepreneur place can invest in something well-developed? We do not know; we can just assume.

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: Even for India also, there are so many enterprising entrepreneurs; Mumbai is full of entrepreneurs. They may not be like international but they are entrepreneurs. They are doing great job. Thus the Mumbai is well known for that. It can be so many tiny and major businessmen these people in. But what do they know about Wall Street? Just let us assume they come to Wall Street and they're asked to invest. Now, on these various shares, three types of shares [in Australia]. One is you can invest in private companies without coming to share the initial stage companies. Then you go for your own managed investment managed funds. So now this is a tricky part. I do not know what. In fact many people do not know what is Wall Street itself. That is the scenario. Imagine these people coming to Australia and do it. So somebody has to hold their hands. How many of them can be handheld through these investments? For example, in EB-5 they have got this regional centers do something that has got very good forum there and it has got some sort of do with Australia, have any sort of investors who can help them do these sort of investments?

Salman Siddiqui: No. Right.

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: Not really. That's the problem. So how is it going to work? It's a good thing that the government actually decided we want investment, but it should be productive and useful to everyone, including the investor himself.

Let us do something different so that not only the economy boosts. The person who is coming in is also having some benefit out of it. That is exactly the scenario is not yielding. For example, you are given two years to invest. By the time two years to three years have passed, they are unable to find a proper venue to invest, if at all. They invest, they have to because a compulsion to find out something, they invest. And that is not going to give out the type of results to get the PR in order to get that PR, they need to have some minimal requirement, although it's not as if as your EB-5. So they have to show that there was reasonable turnover and they have employed few people at the at least couple of people. So obviously business should have some reasonable progress that has to be shown. There is a minimum requirement, is there, that is not been able to meet because they have taken the decision to three out of the four years already, two, three years of spent just looking at the battery investor.

Salman Siddiqui: What you described are very serious issues that any entrepreneur from any country who comes to Australia would be facing. And this stream has been there for a while. It just I'm surprised that it took so much time for them to realize that something needs to be changed.

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: That's a good question you asked. Actually, this brings me to that this change is what we mean that the current process is what is going to be revamped. But this one was only about five six years back. It started actually previously it was there in a different way. Let us let me put it this way. The investors visa previously say about before 2015, I don't exactly remember when, but I had a client at that time since 2005 and was I'm in this field until around 2010 or 2015. I remember at that time you needed to invest this AUD1.5 million or whatever you need to invest in the government treasury. It's very crystal clear. All you have to do is invest in the government treasury or investment in a particular, whichever is directed by the state government. In state government only provides direction. Where to invest. That's all they have to do except for the innovation stream. Obviously, you have to provide a project in the direct investment stream. You have to just invest in that matter and sort out innovation stream. You have to tell them that what sort of business you are and the state government approves. Matter solved.

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: As I told you, the AUD2.5 million, you split it into half a million into venture capital. Another half into developing listed companies, but just developing not a fully established company. And then the managed funds where you can invest whatever you want in the companies, got a managed fund, you can be part of that. So that can be up to AUD1.2 million, especially after 2021. They further changed recently in 2021, only they changed it further within these two years. They found out now. They should have been on this for earlier on, but they became too serious only after these changes they were introduced in 2021. They further changed it. What is existing today is actually since 2020 1^st of July to be very exact data. Before that, they introduced some changes around 2015. They have been a little bit small. Changes have been happening in periodically but of late have been drastic. Now only last few years only they have been sitting on that and they realize that yes, it is not working to the level that it is expected. Or for example, they should cut these contributions. Let us assume 2 to 3 employment per venture. Even that might not be exactly happening.

Salman Siddiqui: Now. Moving on. Let's also talk about the existing applications or existing streams that are there right now and are still available to applicants. So if you could talk about that, the current stream that we have for business people, for entrepreneurs, so what they should be applying for right now under this scenario where changes are expected, which stream do you recommend to your clients that okay, you should go for this one.

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan:  Yeah. Within the existing streams we have for streams, we have generally called as 188 subclass. Yeah. That's all. It's not exactly real world. It's not endless. But our own, the local people just identify. We just say A, B, C and D, that's all there is. One is nothing but what they call as innovation visa, which is not always your product, has to be innovative. That's good. It's actually meant for that, but not necessarily. You may have produced a plant where it's useful for the state because this visa has to be nominated by a state. So you first have to contact the state and provide a plan. In that case, if they approve, all you have to have is you should have assert AUD1.25 million. That should be your assert, business asset and personal asset. Together, you should be willing to transfer AUD1.25 million into Australia. This was not so much previously, it was somewhere around AUD800,000 or something like that previously. But then now they changed only in 2021 as 1.25 million.

Other important area they should have is a turnover. They should have had a turnover enjoying a turnover for the last two years for each year about AUD750,000. Previously it was only around AUD500,000. Now it's AUD750,000. And also in case they are working currently in a company that has assets of only AUD400,000, then they should have 51% of their share on that. On the other hand, if it is a huge company beyond AUD400,000, then they need to have only 10% of the share.

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: So these sort of various ingredients are there. But ultimately they need to be investing in Australia on a project, their own project. They can either buy existing one or transferring AUD1.25 million. That's the main condition. Of course there are other few other small conditions. You should be less than 55 years old and you should also score 65 points. That's another crazy part. Apart from investing AUD1.25 million, you should also score 65 points on various parameters. One of the parameters will be your knowledge of English. You should have at least a functional level of English then your age, obviously above 55 cannot apply between the age of 28 to 55 will be given points and it depends on your turnover. What was your turnover? You'll get points for that. What are your assets? If your assets are more, you'll get points for that. So your experience also will get some points. So these things add up to and give you 65 points in case your project is well accepted as a special case and they really want it in is an important sector in the state government, then you will get additional points also. Then we have another three. Other three is what we call only 88 B. Only 88 B is reasonably straightforward compared to 188. However still it has got 65 points. Same parameters, 65 points are there. But you you just have to invest a 2.5 million.

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: Currently it's AUD2.5 million. Previously it's AUD2.25 million. So you should also have some business plan that's getting 62 points. You don't need a business plan here. Because what you're going to do with AUD2.25 million is different from the point where you have to show the entire AUD2.2 5 million. But to actually invest somewhere; that's up to you.

Whereas here there is a section where you have to invest; what you have to do is AUD2.25 million. You have to invest half a million in the in any private company, for example, it can not be listed company, any private company and any entrepreneur. You can invest another about AUD750,000. You can invest in a management funds, a developing company, but that should be listed company and listed company but need not be. Well, hybrid a company which is just coming up that type of company. You can manage another set of investors. You have to invest the remaining AUD1.25 million, you must invest in what is called a managed fund, where many people pool their money in a particular company's project. You will be one of those investors that the managed funds you can invest AUD1.25 millon. So this is the only requirement for B.

C is even more made easy; the investment is AUD5 million [in the significant investor stream]. One of the beauty of this route, which is called significant investor as the name suggests, because significantly, you invest more money compared to the investor stream.There’s no age limit for this one; you just need to have a functional English, or you can pay some money extra for that. And you don't need to have a business background as well, unlike the previous. So no points. So there's no point test, nothing. All you are doing is I'm ready to invest this AUD5 million, that's all. So you are 18 years old plus irrespective of age and you're ready to invest. So what? How would you have to invest? Same category like point B? The investment alone is slightly changed. You have to invest about AUD1 million in the growth area, AUD1 million in the private sector; or you can invest 1.5 million. In the developing sector you can invest AUD2.5 million. I told you managed funds where people pull up their money on a particular project so that you can invest AUD2.5 million in that. So this is the only requirement for them. So you should know that you are having AUD5 million accessible money to Australia.

Then the interesting one is the last one D. What is D? It’s actually the entrepreneur visa. Previously there was a huge issue with that because you have to get a sort of an angel investor, which is a government body like a university or a government approved some, something like that. They have to invest $200,000 in your project.

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: That's a bit tricky and not easily possible for a person to have some sort of a tie up with such a body and get the thing. Now they reduced it actually in 2021. Very nice. What they said is you have a project, you give it to the state authority. Each state authority has got a body. They have nominated a body. That body approves your project. Fine. That's it. There is no minimum requirement. Nothing except of course, the only requirement is the age. You still have to be less than 65 and in English is slightly high, like a complete English. That's all. No other requirement. There's not even fixed amount.

If you have a very good project which is really important to Australia or that particular region, and that particular authority which is assigned to approve it, that's it. You can instantly have it for five years. And if you establish the business in five years and you have a minimal time after, some question arise; you should have some minimum turnover; you should have around AUD 600,000 turnover or you should employ two people, a few categories you have to maintain. You have to have an assets of around AUD300,000 or whatever. If you maintain few things, you will be able to get your permanent residence. But entry is a little bit easier and that's what it is. So this is the four parameters we had.

Salman Siddiqui: Actually, I also want to ask you from your experience especially say in the last five years, which subcategory under the stream has been more popular or you've seen more clients from? And what was the reason for that?

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: The 188 stream is the most popular, the reason is that although it requires some documents, it's quite straightforward because you need to have only AUD1.25 million as assets, which is reasonable for any established business people. And they are to invest in a nice project, that's all. Fortunately, these entrepreneurs will take an expertise of themselves and provide a nice project. That's where the blending comes easy. Whereas they do not have to speculate which side. I'm going to put water in there a little bit easier for them, and as long as the project has got some sort of value. For example, I had a client who said he's going to start only the education thing and the people got excited. But education is already there in Australia… What are you going to do? But he really proved a point that I'm going to bring you an education, especially after the pandemic, where people are able to cope up with the society. I'm going to have a situation where I want to be able to interact and I want people to coordinate because they have been isolated for a long time. It's time that we get back to do something. And children are molded in such a way, and my education will have this thing and also provide remedy for others. This is what my education courses are accepted by them and they immediately gave the visa to actually also.

Salman Siddiqui: Want to know from you whether processing times are also a factor in having one category more popular than the other. The reason I'm asking is because we hear a lot of complaints online about my applications are not being processed as quickly. So under these sub categories is this some streams or these sub categories are more quickly processed than the other, or is it the same. And it's just that's not a big factor.

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: There are some issues with regard to documentation actually. What is the purpose of documentation? I will tell you in an example from my own clients. For example, I had a client who is doing zoning rubber estates. So what happened? He applied for the investor visa. The due diligence is always there. In Australia we have to supply documents they supplied and they checked. They found everything is okay. Now the situation has come that he has to now sell that one and once you nominate a particular property, you cannot change the property. When you nominate. This is what you are going to do. Unlike many countries, in Australia, unfortunately you cannot change once you nominate, you have to only stick to that. Otherwise you have to start the process entirely. So in this particular case, unfortunately, he is ready to sell that one. But the moment visa officers came for investor visa after deposit; only then the visa will come. You will only get the approval preliminary approval, which is not really just saying, okay, you are going to get visa. So really you will get the visa if you are really transparent. So they said okay please provide the proof that you have sold this. Unfortunately, what happened here is that the property value changed.

But by the time this took about six months. If it is in six months, the property value changed and he is caught in a situation. Even if he sells, he will not be able to meet the requirement. Now this is where the investor visa get into confusion. Because this AUD2.5 million and AUD3 million, you are already fine tuned. It's not like AUD2 million. It is not a million. So even a rich person would have done some planning to it.

So now you are in a bank. This will be in some interest. So when the investment has to be shown, although they will give time, but it is not going to fetch that much, they have to put money elsewhere. This is a tricky issue where that is not the case with AUD1.25 million, because all they have to do is just bring it there. Secondly, AUD1.5 million is lesser compared to AUD2.5 million. Unfortunately, he explained, they accepted yes because it's true. So he produced the market report. But unfortunately in his situation, even then the market did not turn out declined. And he said he withdrew. He has no choice because although they gave it time, he is unable to make the money. So it is due to his bad luck. Again, the price rose up now anyway.

Salman Siddiqui: Moving on Venkat, before I let you go, I want to talk about more stuff because you have so many stories. So when we could also talk about this question that always comes regarding Australia is can I just buy property and just get my permanent residency? People who are looking for quick fixes, what do you say to them?

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: So that question seriously, it's a very practical question. What you are asking, especially those students, their parents want to do this. And many of my clients in the last decades pestering me for this thing, that it's possible. And the answer is unfortunately, both yes and no. The reason is that if you ask, can you buy a personal property and migrate? Impossible. If you buy a property on your own name and you show that as a property, even if you buy fir millions, is not going to help you at all. You cannot migrate based on that commercial property. A sort of yes or no personal property, no straight, no commercial property alone. Yes or no in the sense if you straight away buy a commercial property, say now I'm putting it on lease, so give me migration. No, you're not going to get it. That's similar to your personal property. You bought a property. You say it's a commercial property. I'm giving a lease now. Where is my migration? But you are an investor. You plan yourself. For example, you go to this typical like your EB-5 regional centers, and what you can do is that you go to the managed funds. So the particular company that manages funds is used to buy some property, and they are putting out lease. Out of the many investors who share their funds, managed funds, you are one of those managed funds that company are managing. They invested somewhere. That way you can. So people who are very keen on this should meet a proper to consultants, not just the migration lawyer, some investment consultant as well. Only then this can work out. It's possible like this. Not directly possible.

Salman Siddiqui: Moving on, I would also like to talk to you about this global talent independent program of Australia. If you could just briefly mention about who it's targeted for and whether that program is working or not.

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: It started around 2019. There seems that the government is happy with it, because it did not alter it much. In fact, they added more and more explanation to that and initially started up something. And now if you go and look into the websites, you will have plenty of explanation of various categories. So it seems to me they are a little bit happy with that. So to whom it is targeted, it is not exactly targeting a return, although entrepreneurial skills also can be there, but it's purely targeted on certain skills at this point of time.

Although anybody with international level skill, if you have an international reputation and you have skills which are widely accepted and that are internationally accepted, not just national. So in that case, you will be in a position to actually apply for this. You still learn the profession or in that occupation, whatever the international level achievements, you should have the international level achievements and you are nominated by a similar person from Australia who is having the similar achievement. It can be an organization or a person, not necessarily organization. You don't have to get a job. Also, there is no requirement.

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: All you have to prove that you are internationally reputable and you have international skills, which is which is required in Australia. And there should be somebody in Australia, either a body or something who can endorse this. That's all is a requirement. So saying that it's normally difficult just because people went to a few countries and gave a seminar. No not necessarily. That becomes like and you talk here straight away, claim that we are internationally reputed may not be right. We may be internationally skilled. Don't say no. So that's what it is. So we need to have some sort of provision. But it's possible. Why it is working now is that they really got few good skilled people that people who are like leading professors, leading personalities were able to make a few of them. So they found it's pretty good because they're employable, because people had such high level skills who should be in a position to straightaway claim minimum salary of currently AUD$168,000. That level of salary were able to attract. The good thing what government did is there is no age limit. There is no English specific high level of English requirement is also not there. You may not know very good English, but you can still be a world internationally renowned person.

Salman Siddiqui: And the visa processing time is also shorter for it?

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan:. What happens is that currently there are people who got within 48 months, which very rare. Other people are mostly waiting for about 12 months. But we have a case, a couple of cases who have got it only within months. Seriously, they had done some international research. Actually, it's a science person whose whose research is something to do with sheep actually. So obviously you know why Australia strictly jumped on that one. Right. So this sort of clarity. So you should also establish how you are useful to Australia.

Salman Siddiqui: We are coming close to the end of our episode and in the end, I will give you an opportunity for 30 seconds to make your pitch about Australia and why you think people should continue applying for those business innovation streams and the other streams that we talked about, given the changes that are going to come. So please go ahead. You have 30 seconds.

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: Yeah. Thank you so much. Australia is a country where it's most peaceful, laid back country, as you already know. It’s well known for its health system, is well known for it’s transparency. It’s one of the most transparent countries in the world. One of the most livable cities in the world. Australia has got always the most livable cities. So this is one reason you should definitely come and live here. Number two is that Australia provides a huge opportunity in terms of education and health, because the system itself is livable environment. You have a healthy atmosphere and it is not as congested as many countries, even countries like India, or even US for that matter. Whereas Australia is a little more of a laid back area and it provides a lot of opportunity. Healthcare system, easy to access education system, various systems are there. And secondly, visa process is also always straightforward. In my 18 years I never found it can be slightly delayed but always been straightforward. So that is one reason that you must. It's not confusing at all. They take the time to explain also, this is the reason why a it’s friendly country as long as you do not cheat the system, they are not going to harm you at all. The question of harm comes only when you try to cheat the system. If you don't, you will definitely be here.

Salman Siddiqui: Thank you so much Venkat for making your pitch there. Excellent and I really appreciate you taking out the time for us and explaining to us in thorough detail about what's happening there in Australia, the changes that are going to come and so many opportunities there. So I'm really happy to have you on the show.

Venkateswaran Palat Krishnan: Thank you so much.

Salman Siddiqui: And in the end, I will just make a shout out to our listeners that please stay tuned to our podcast. We'll be bringing you more guests from around the world. So please stay tuned and thank you.

You've been listening to the Investment Immigration podcast by you Uglobal.com. Join us again soon for more in-depth conversations exploring investment immigration opportunities from around the world.f

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