Mihan Hannan: If you are basically a startup founder, that is the program for you because it's going to be streamlined, it's faster. You can also get access to these global talent taskforce support systems, and that's for business owners as well.
Salman Siddiqui: Welcome to the Investment Immigration podcast by you Uglobal.com with weekly in-depth interviews with the world's leading investment immigration professionals.
Welcome to another episode of the Investment Immigration podcast by you, Uglobal.com. I'm your host, Salman Siddiqui, from Berlin. So, in this episode, we are going to focus on Australia's investment immigration program, and we're going to talk about what's happening there, particularly about Australia's business innovation and investment program. As a lot of our listeners might know, there has been a lot of news recently about it, about certain delays which are happening in the program, about some limitations there. We are going to find out if that is true or not. And also, in this episode, we are going to find out if there are any other alternatives to this program for high-net-worth individuals. So, to discuss this further, I have a very special guest with me. His name is Mihan Hannan. He's a partner at Hannan Tew Lawyers, which is a Melbourne-based firm, and he's joining us actually right now all the way from Sarajevo. Welcome to the show, Mihan.
Mihan Hannan: Thank you very much. Pleasure being here.
Salman Siddiqui: Let's first talk about what's happening with Australia's business innovation and investment program. Are there any limitations there now? Has something changed in that program? So, if you could just talk about that?
Mihan Hannan: Absolutely. So, I guess, look, the background is Australia's immigration program is quite robust. Skilled migration has historically been the majority in addition to family. The investor program has always been quite small, usually about 5,000 positions. Now the current Labor government has decided to shrink it to even smaller amounts and focus more on that skilled migration component. So, this year for the financial year coming up, the program has been cut down to 1,900. And guess in terms of comparison, the skilled migration program overall is 130,000, and the entire migration program is about 190,000. So, you've got a small pie and an even smaller slice, and that's flowing into the delays across the board because there's only an X amount that can be filled in. And obviously, everybody wants to come to Australia. Can you blame them? So, the applicants are rising and then with that smaller pool, of course, unfortunately there's delays.
Salman Siddiqui: I understand. And for those of our listeners who don't know much about this particular option, could you give us an overview? What is Australia's business innovation and investment program, and what were its objectives?
Mihan Hannan: Yeah, absolutely. So, there's two visa subclasses, let's say, in that program. One is temporary, one is a permanent. The [Business Innovation and Investment] 188 is the temporary, the [Business Innovation & Investment (Residence)] 888 is permanent. And with those numbers, you can see who the Department of Immigration was targeting, mainly auspicious numbers from Chinese nationals, and that's historically been the program. So, a large cohort, about 90%, has been targeted to Chinese nationals. But that's not excluding anyone. It just happened to be that there was a lot of money flowing in China over its economic boom, and Australia geographically is great in terms of distance and time zone. So anyway, the 188 and 888, the two visas, are just components of residence, temporary and permanent, but it's split into four streams in terms of who they're targeting. The first one is business innovation, established business owners; there are levels of how much they have to demonstrate in terms of turnover and assets to pass that criteria. There are two investor streams: an investor stream of AUD$ 2.5 million and an investor significant investor stream of AUD $5 million. And then lastly, there's this innovation stream or entrepreneur stream rather, which is for, let's say, people who are starting a startup and has some kind of funding to kick start that through an incubator and accelerator program, which is approved by the Australian government, usually the states, and they can apply for that last stream. But it's all the same visa in terms of 188 is temporary 888 is permanent.
Salman Siddiqui: Talking about the delays now. So have the delays hit across all visa streams, or is it just for the temporary visa one, what's happening? If you could explain.
Mihan Hannan: Unfortunately, it's more or less against the entire program to take a step back. Some of these streams have points, tests, and they're the ones that are most impacted. And the reason for that is, well, when you have a points test, the program works in that you apply for an expression of interest, but the people with the highest points will get invited or get processed, right? So, if you're at a higher points test, you're getting faster processing, whereas at a lower point, you're not. Those ones are obviously adversely impacted. But ultimately, the issue is still that we have 1,900 positions to fill between all of the applicants. So, I'm seeing the 188 being two-three years, if not longer similar to the 888, which means at least people have a provisional or a temporary visa, which is the 188. But the eventual goal of getting to permanent residence is delayed.
Salman Siddiqui: This is what I'm a little confused about. The delays like, before, when the pandemic was still, I mean, the pandemic is technically still out there. But when we were in the thick of things like last year, the delays were understandable because of the processing times that were taking place in so many other countries. But what is happening now in Australia, is it a shift in the government’s thinking there that they don't want this program to continue?
Mihan Hannan: As you would hear in the news, the migration program is basically pumping. It's a big contributor to Australia's economy. COVID showed Australia, if anything, that we are very highly dependent on immigration to fill skilled labor, to bring in skills, knowledge, etcetera. So, the migration program has been expanded significantly. The issue is the targeting has been shifted to skilled migration. So, we're having record numbers of what's known as the general skilled migration program. That's also points tested, but it's not looking at net worth. It is looking at what your qualifications are, what are your skills? They have also created this global talent independent program, which kind of works hand in hand with the investor program. So, the Global Talent (visa) is for individuals in particular sectors. So, there are ten target sectors, basically innovation-driven, say energy resources, fintech, etcetera. And these individuals need to show that they're able to earn above UD$ 167,500 per annum. Right? So usually, a lot of your high-net-worth individuals are probably or potentially business owners in these sectors, start-up owners in these sectors earning that amount or being able to earn that amount. And so, they can be shifted into this now skilled visa rather than just person A has a net worth of X amount, let's bring that person over. So, you know, to answer your question, yes, the processing (delay= is not because there's not enough immigration officers or something like that. The processing delay is more that there is X amount that can be filled, and the positions are being filled with other visa areas.
Salman Siddiqui: To clarify, can we now say that the program has been officially halted? Has it been or is it on the way to be scraped? What can we say about the program? I'm talking, obviously, about the business innovation and investment program.
Mihan Hannan: So yeah, that's a good question. So there has been announcements by the current government that they think that the program isn't fair in terms of how much it's contributing to an Australian citizen compared to another one. So, there's things that make a difference, obviously. Who's making that assessment? Which government has a different kind of view on it? I think the current government is not so pro investment, let's say, but the department website is clear that this is an integral component. We can't just shun investors and not expect some kind of adverse impact. We need cash flow overseas. They're also bringing skills and experience. They're also investing in our community. So, the program, I don't think, is going to be scrapped, but it is going to be slower until there is, and this is likely to happen, there's going to be more tweaks in terms of the control of where is this investment going, perhaps more tightened in the past. I mean, if we look at a long timeline, there was a point where it was an investment in anything property included. Then it was, okay, we've got to limit the investment to certain components, and now it's much more stringent in that it's got to be a complying investment managed by a fund, which is able to do it.
So maybe they'll tighten the particular types of investment just to flow the money into the places that are going to contribute to the economy and potentially lead to more generations of wealth for the investor in the first place.
Salman Siddiqui: I also want to understand from you about the Business Innovation and Investment program, has so many streams and so many options for different kind of foreign applicants. So, are we giving the message out to people who are listening to our show and who are looking at this program that maybe they should not apply for now at least, and they should consider other options because their chances of getting a visa would be better if they seek out alternatives.
Mihan Hannan: No, I mean, look, it's a case-by-case basis, right? So, if a person comes to me, I'm going to advise them on how to get the outcome, which is the visa in Australia. So, I've got an example of a Vietnamese tech founder who had an organization with 200 employees, turnover of 2 million per annum plus, and he was interested in the innovation or business innovation visa. So, he approached me, and yes, you meet the eligibility requirements for that, but you are also a founder in one of these target sectors, Digitech [digital technology industry] in Australia, you could also earn [high-income threshold] AUD$ 167,500. Now, that [Global Talent] visa has 5,000 positions and can be filled much quicker, so why don't we apply for that? So, I guess the message would be to look at Australia's robust program because just the visa class or the number in itself is just a number. What you're looking for is permanent residence, temporary residence, or citizenship. And so, if you look at all of those options, then for some people, the investor is the only option because they don't have the time to get a skills assessment or demonstrate that they're going to do something. They've just got money. Okay, fine, let's apply for it. It'll sit there for a couple of years. You'll get processed eventually; you get the result that you want. But if you have a faster one, let's look at that. So, look, I think the program is going to have to exist because any developed country needs an investor inflow. It's also that Australia is one of these countries with a very robust program with many options that might be more appropriate for you depending on your circumstance.
Salman Siddiqui: And there is something also you mentioned earlier in the podcast, which was about how the government is looking to attract foreign investors to the country. And I want to poke your brains a little bit more on that. Could you explain to us what the current Australian government is thinking about attracting foreign investors? Is there a climate now in the country where it is less welcoming than what it was before or is that wrong to say?
Mihan Hannan: Yeah, I don't think that's the case. I think it's just really this visa is the target. I mean, to take a step back in the past, it has been misused, and there's been a lot of reporting of that where even the investors were swindled, say, it's a very strong word, but there are unscrupulous investments like investment vehicles. The providers of these financial services who were not able to adapt to the requirements of immigration law and that's caused issues with it. So, if I'm being pragmatic, I think the government is just looking at it in terms of foreign investment. Of course, Australia loves foreign investment, as any country does, and going back to global talent because I'm just seeing that's the best driver at the moment. There is a global talent task force, which is designed to speak to an investor. This is outside of finding an immigration lawyer or someone. This is a government-directed official who will talk to the business and say, “Hey, these are the ways to invest your capital in Australia and these are the visa subclasses that are there.” So I think, in that sense, Australia right now is undeniably pro-migration. They just happen to be looking at this visa area to make sure everybody wins, including the investor, including Australian citizens, and has a system that works for everybody.
Salman Siddiqui: So, somebody who is listening to our show, let's say, for example, a Chinese investor who has been, as you know, panicking a little bit about visa delays under the Business Innovation and Investment program. If they are listening to our show and they want to apply to an alternative program. You mentioned the Global Talent visa. Is that the only alternative option for high-net-worth-individuals? If you could explain what are the options out there on the table?
Mihan Hannan: Sure. So, look, a high-net-worth-individual can be a bunch of different things. They can have an Australian partner, in which case it's a family visa or they could be employed as a software engineer in a company, in which case they can get a company-sponsored visa, or they simply just have qualifications as a software engineer. Basically, Australia is looking for STEM-skilled individuals primarily, but also in other areas. And if a high-net-worth-individual fits into one of these occupation lists, they can apply for the general Skilled migration program. It shouldn't be looked at as not an option. Just because you are high net worth is what I would say. And then, of course, the Global Talent is, if you are basically a startup founder, the program for you because it's going to be streamlined, it's faster. You can also get access to these Global Talent taskforce support systems, and that's for business owners as well. So, look at all these options together.
And as any good lawyer would do, is put across the different options to you and expected timelines and see what is most appropriate.
Salman Siddiqui: Excellent. And under the Global Talent visa program, for example, there is an entrepreneur who wants to come to Australia, perhaps to start their own business or maybe join an existing acquire an existing business. What are the eligibility criteria for the program? Do they have to, perhaps, meet some language requirements under the program?  If you could explain a little bit more about that?
Mihan Hannan: So, the Global Talent program for individuals is quite streamlined. There are two steps: an expression of interest and a visa application. So, this initial step of an expression of interest is the most challenging in that you have to demonstrate to the Australian government that you're a person who has international recognition in one of these target sectors; you're able to earn above the fair work high-income threshold of AUD$ 167,500; you have an Australian nominator, and then you're going to basically make a significant contribution to Australia. So, these are kind of discretionary in some ways, but there is a mold, say to fit, and this is why I keep saying that there is for tech startup owners, you're going to fit into these quite easily because you can show that you've got the funding or the ability to earn at above that amount. The biggest challenge is usually finding a nominator, which is an Australian citizen or permanent resident or an Australian company. But in Australia, there are companies like Australian Computer Society (ACS) or organizations rather, who are now nominating individuals, recognizing that this is a program that a lot of people want to use.
Once you've got the expression of interest, then of course, you have to meet the visa criteria, health, character, and English. But even English is something that either you have the requisite level of English through a test, got the qualifications in English, for example, in which you pass it, or you can pay an amount to avoid it. So, the whole program is actually designed to say we need talent, not just people with great English, because you might have a genius mathematician who's not passing the English requirements but doesn't need to for their line of work or their startup. The program is also quite fast in terms of the expression of interest; about six to 12 months, and then the visa is six months. And another benefit of that is its direct permanent residence.
So, if you remember when we were talking at the beginning, it's the 188, which then leads to 888. You've got two steps of processing, two steps of eligibility, and two steps of meeting the requirements. Whereas the Global Talent, you meet that requirement and think, look, the Global Talent is bringing you over for your talent, right? So, your startup might fail in Australia, but that's not going to lead to a cancellation.
The point is you've got the requirements that Australia wants, you've got the established business, you get the visa, you hopefully make that work.
Salman Siddiqui: Right. And I also want to understand from you what does the Australian Government considers as talent? You mentioned a little bit about the focus on STEM industries, but say, for example, somebody belongs to a non-STEM background. Are you saying they don't stand a chance under this program? I'm really interested to know how the government even defines talent?
Salman Siddiqui: Yeah, exactly. So, this is the question. What is international recognition? Right. And the department does have a website, and a lot of this is policy because it's not a measure of you have this job and you have this title. It is how are you internationally recognized? So, it depends on your profession. If you're an academic, they'll look at have you been delivering at seminars? Have you been delivering at presentations, things like your media appearance? So, all of these kinds of things are combined together, easy ones, and I always jump back to the start-up founder because it's the easiest one to show that you have venture capital funding; “Here's your memorandum of understanding with some organization to supply.” So, they look at this holistically, and it is a detailed process. You put in a lot of documentation, and documentation is key. It's not just to say, “Hey, I'm Mihan, I'm president of so-and-so.”
They want to be able to verify it. And I think that's key across the entire immigration program, including the 188, 888, documentary evidence is key. But if you have that kind of reputation, let's put it this way, if you're Googleable, it not an issue at all any less, we can still make a chance, and you don't actually need to be STEM in terms of qualifications. A lot of startup founders might be sales-orientated, but they're running the organization. So, you need this connection to these target sectors; fintech, energy, EdTech. Think of it as the sectors that are currently in demand or innovative for the future. And then once you can establish that nexus, well, then it's worth a shot.
Salman Siddiqui: I see. And of course, you understand how all these terms may come across as sort of vague and arbitrary for some people who are listening and trying to apply. And there will be a lot of self-doubt for a lot of people. Maybe they'll be like, maybe, “I'm not talented enough for the government.” So at the same time, I also would like you to further clarify this entire process of getting nominated. You mentioned a company can nominate you, so how does that process really work? Where does a foreign applicant go to get that nomination? How can they, for example, get their business plan approved? Is it a plan? Does it need an approval?
Mihan Hannan: So, look, there's not like a formal approval process for any business plan. It is a submission. And then based on the evidence that you have of existing achievements. So, if you've got an operating business in one of those target sectors, then that is good evidence. And then you obviously provide as much information as possible in terms of what you're going to do the nominator. Great question, because what is it so that or actually two steps.
Firstly, I think you're mentioning that people are afraid to even apply because they don't know what international recognition is. Well, it is kind of like a sales pitch, right? You're doing a sales pitch to an individual. I would say don't undersell yourself because I think that is the problem with a lot of people, particularly from certain cultural backgrounds. They're not used to the American style of let's do a sales pitch, and I'm a champion. So back yourself. Make sure you meet the base requirements, then apply with the nominator. It's actually a form. It's called [Nomination for Global Talent] Form 1,000, which needs to be completed by an Australian citizen, permanent resident, or company or organization rather, with a national reputation. So, it just can't be anybody. It has to be someone with some kind of reputation in that sector. So, if you're in fintech, they should be from the fintech sector. They should have a reputation. As a rule of thumb, I'd like to say someone senior up in an organization that is reputed or the organization itself, and then the Form 1,000 itself is not an obligation to employ you, it's not an obligation to assist you afterward or anything like that.
It's just a declaration to say this is a person that I think has international recognition in this target sector, and they can earn above so and so. So, it is a promise that has to be a truthful document, but it's not so crazy in terms of obligations from it and how to find it. Well, we've been creative in terms of telling a person to just go on their LinkedIn and contact people that they would think of as their mentors, and people usually like to reciprocate. So that's one option. You can go to your academic institutions and see, Are you still in touch with a lecturer in that area who's now quite senior and able to nominate you? And the last is obviously cold call companies and say: “Hey, I'm interested in employment. I'm going to do my own visa, will you nominate me?” Everybody wins because there are record levels of unemployment or low levels of unemployment in Australia. There's a demand for, especially in these sectors, and that's why this visa has been developed.
Salman Siddiqui: I also now want to find out about the processing time for this particular Global Talent visa. What timeframe are we usually looking at?
Mihan Hannan: Yeah, so there the two stages, the [Expression of Interest]  EOI and the visa. I was saying earlier that you might want to take a shot if you're eligible. And the reason is that doesn't have any government lodgment fee. It is just effectively asking a government official to determine whether or not you meet the criteria, and then they will invite you. So that initial stage will take six to 12 months. And then that second stage of the visa processing is about six months. So, 18 months from start to finish in terms of starting at zero to permanent residence. And what happens after you get the Global Talent visa that's valid for four years, three years, and then you become automatically eligible for permanent residency. If you could explain a little bit on that. Sure. So, it is actually a direct permanent residence visa. You've got permanent residence, but Australian permanent residence visas have this thing called a Travel Facility, which means that it's only valid for five years and you're expected to either apply for another visa or obtain citizenship or let it lapse within that time. So that five-year travel facility means that you can enter any time during those five years and be a permanent resident, and then usually, you're eligible for citizenship within four years if that's the end goal. Or you can continue maintaining your permanent residence by just physically being in Australia for two of every five years.
Salman Siddiqui: Right. And this leads to citizenship after four years, you're saying. Are you seeing a focus on this now, especially now with the delays in the other program? Are you seeing more and more applicants applying for the Global Talent visa? And if you could give us a maybe you can share some trends about which particular countries are usually being successful under this program. What trends have you observed?
Salman Siddiqui: Yeah. So, for us as a firm which we can speak to is definitely has been a shift to the Global Talent program itself. And also, going back to the start of the podcast, we've seen the general skilled migration program booming because there are more positions. It's easier to get invitations because all the states are inviting people. Everybody's getting invited. Happy days for most of those subject areas in terms of countries. So yes, the 188 is almost 90% or 188 and 888 is almost 90% Chinese nationals, whereas the Global Talent is much more diversified. So at least from our client pool, it seemed to be a lot of us Western Europe, European nationals, but also South Asia. So I have a lot of connections to Bengalis or the Bangladeshi community, which has a lot of people who have met that, particularly in academia in those areas. So, it's not targeted in the same way. The number is not eight, eight, eight, it's not auspicious. So, it's been more global in that sense. And yeah, I'd say most of our pool is from the West, Europe, and South Asia. Right.
Salman Siddiqui: And I would also like to know a little bit more about your clients and the kind of trends that you're seeing there, and particularly, of course, from your American clients. And you also mentioned your South Asian clients. Are they moving in with their families? Are they coming just on their own initially to test the waters, what kind of questions do they really have when they are going through that process? I'm sure it's a very post-pandemic, anxiety-inducing process.
Mihan Hannan: Yeah, absolutely. And ultimately, people can apply for visas everywhere. There are cost issues, etcetera. But what is it that people are looking for. At the end of the day, with most of my clients, it is safety and security for their families. It's the great health care system that Australia has. Great education system: I was just Googling before this podcast, and I think we have seven universities in the top 100 ranked in Australia, right? And then access to that is indexed loans to go to university as opposed to interest. So, there's a lot of benefits for the family. The visa program itself is also designed like that. All your family members can be included, the members of your family unit. At least the complaint, or the challenge I get from some of my Asian clients, is you can't include parents on that, unfortunately. But you know, your children, your spouse, etcetera are included. They have access to the life of opportunity that Australia offers. So yeah, I think almost all of my clients, 80% of my clients, would have at least a partner because it can be far away to move to Australia. That’s the only downside. The flights out of here can be 20 hours. So people come here with family, and usually, yes, of course, people would establish themselves here first through a visit, just to identify what the country has to offer. Maybe they hate sunshine, maybe they hate great weather, so they might not get used to it. And also, there's an important choice in terms of picking the city. So, Australia has some world-class cities like Melbourne and Sydney, but also smaller cities that provide a different kind of cultural immersion, let's say Perth, WA. I love that city, but it is very disconnected from East Australia. These are the factors that need to be considered, but 100%, it's a place for family. Australia is all about having that big backyard, having your kids safely go to school, etcetera, and living a life full of opportunity.
Salman Siddiqui: And we are now coming close to the end of our episode. But before I let you go, I would like to talk a little bit more about how an applicant gets to decide where to live in Australia. I mean, do they already know which city to go, or do you advise your clients to choose a particular city? Maybe they have a better chance of approval there. How does it usually work with your clients?
Mihan Hannan: So it depends on the visa. So, the 188, for example, there is state nomination and if it's state nomination, then the investment or the business etcetera would have to be connected to that state. At that initial stage. I mostly see clients will have like an idea of a couple of states, almost always New South Wales and Victoria, because that's where they want to be. But different states have different requirements. New South Wales might want business innovation in a particular area. Might be more open-minded in terms of other options or might be open-minded in other options. So, we do have to have this conversation at the beginning stage, which is if you're doing a state-nominated visa or pursuing a state-nominated visa, it's going to make an impact on where you're going to be based. And to be fair, a lot of people are willing to do that, go to that state. Do their investment requirements or comply with their investment requirements? And then, once they've got permanent residence, reconsider, who knows, they might love that place and stay there. That's different to basically direct permanent residence options like the  [Subclass Global Talent] 858 or the Global Talent visa, which is you've just got the visa. You can live anywhere you want. But yes, of course, when I speak to a client early on, there's always the question of practicality as well Which state do I recommend, etcetera? And hands down, I've got to say Melbourne.
So, apart from some days of rainy weather, that's the place to be for us. And I think you can't really go wrong with most of the urban areas for sure in terms of economic growth. And of course, the government is investing a lot in regional development as well. So, there's opportunities depending on what you're looking for.
Salman Siddiqui: Before we go, I'll give you also an opportunity of some 30 seconds for you to make a pitch for Australia and explain why you think the alternatives are still there for foreign investors. It's not the end of the road, as we are hearing in the media.
Mihan Hannan: Absolutely. Look, Australia invests pitches for itself, so I don't really need to go there in terms of lifestyle, but in terms of the visa options, I'm not shutting out the investor visa. I'm just saying it is a program of so many opportunities. Just being pigeonholed into the investor visa is probably doing a disservice to most clients. So, when you're looking at a visa option in Australia, you should be looking at what is the visa as a permanent residence that I'm looking for, aim for that and then use whichever option you're looking for in terms of the pitch for investment. Well, Australia is booming in terms of comparatively in a time of great difficulty globally. Last 30 years really, Australia has been developing at a fast rate.
Mihan Hannan: The population is primed in terms of location between, I think, the benefit of being close to China in many ways in terms of geography as well as our relationship and Western Europe and the US. So, you've got business opportunities globally. It's a stable government that is driven by delivering economic value to everyone. And I think comparatively to a lot of countries in the developed world, equality is key, and that's where things that we appreciate and value of access to healthcare and education is the ultimate win because everybody has, as we say in Australia, a right to a fair go. So, if you've got your funds, you may as well invest it here because this is something that's security in a world that sometimes does not have excellent points there.
Salman Siddiqui: And there you heard it, everyone. Australia is a place to go. Even in these times when there are a lot of rumors going around. So, thank you so much for taking out the time once again, and in the end, I want to give a shout-out to our listeners that please stay tuned to our podcast. I'll be bringing you guests from all over the world to talk about more programs. So, stay tuned. And thank you, Mihan.
Mihan Hannan: Thanks for your time. Salman. A pleasure.
Salman Siddiqui: You've been listening to the Investment Immigration podcast by Uglobal.com. Join us again soon for more in-depth conversations exploring investment immigration opportunities from around the world.

Powered by Froala Editor