Kal Dobbin: There are just a lot of compelling reasons why you would want to have a citizenship here, and some of it is related to personal security and what's going on in Europe and perhaps things that are going on in North America that's driving a lot of people to say, well, hey, can I have a backup in the Caribbean? Because it's not good enough to just have a home in a place that you can fly to if something happens. As we saw in the pandemic, sometimes you actually need a different passport to exit a country and then to get into one when borders closed down and then Antigua actually scrapped all personal income tax in 2016. So there is no personal income tax here. The corporate tax is quite low here, too. And there's lifestyle; there's different motivations.
Salman Siddiqui: Welcome to the Investment Immigration podcast by Uglobal.com with weekly in-depth interviews with the world's leading investment immigration professionals. Welcome to the Investment Immigration podcast, everyone. This is your host, Salman Siddiqui. I'm joining you all from Berlin. In this week's episode, we are going to focus on Antigua and Barbuda. As some of you may know already.
Antigua and Barbuda offers a CBI program that provides a quick route to a second passport. Now, the Caribbean has been in the news for a lot of reasons recently. Some of them have been about the state of its residency programs, their citizenship programs. So we're going to talk about that. And we're also going to look into why the European Commission has its gaze on the Caribbean countries. So to talk about the Antigua CBI program today, my guest is Kal Dobbin. She's the founding partner of Citizens International, which is a Caribbean citizenship and residency specialist agency based in Antigua. Welcome to the show, Kal.
Kal Dobbin: Hi, Salman. Thank you for having me.
Salman Siddiqui: Now, for the benefit of our listeners, could you please update us about what's happening in your region in terms of the CBI program? Have there been any new developments lately?
Kal Dobbin: I think the biggest development has been how many people are actually interested in citizenship. Just to give you a bit of background. I'm English originally and my husband and I moved to the Caribbean almost 20 years ago. We lived in Saint Kitts for three years and then we moved to Antigua. So we're quite familiar with the region here and we spend 8 to 9 months of the year here. And over the last 12 years I've been assisting families from all over the world to do some of the things that we did and achieve citizenship, residency and create a foothold down here in the Caribbean. What we've seen, especially over the last couple of years, is that the market for citizenship by investment has evolved. So five, six, seven years ago, most of our clients, all of our clients really came from outside of the US and Europe, and that's changed. And the pandemic definitely had some input there. Last year, for instance, over 50% of our clients came from the US. That's a complete switch. We have lots of inquiries from Europe and also helping lots of Canadians. So it's really changed. Yeah, I think people have realized that there is an option to potentially relocate down here to the Caribbean and create a life here and apply for citizenship and buy a property. So those markets are now really interested in it.
Salman Siddiqui: If you could start by telling us about the most popular pathway to obtaining an Antiguan passport through the program and what are the associated costs.
Kal Dobbin: So across there's five jurisdictions, as you know, in the Caribbean that offer citizenship by investment, and they're all broadly similar in terms of cost and benefit. There are a few nuances between each one, and depending what people's goals are, we can sort of best advise them which one to go for. But basically the cost of Antigua citizenship is you either have to make a donation or purchase a property. And that's the same in all of the islands. The donation is less in terms of upfront cost. However, it's more in the medium to long term because you're giving it away and you don't have to own anything. So the donation is $100,000 for a family of four or less and it's 125,000 for a family of four or for five or more. And then if you want to base your application on a property investment, then you have to invest a minimum of 200,000 USD. So everything is in US dollars down here, although we have a currency, the eastern Caribbean currency, it's pegged to the US dollar at 2.68. So we're basically US dollar based. So just summarize on the cost then If you're applying and you're making a donation, you're looking at about 160, 170,000 USD. If you're buying a property, you're looking at about 260, 270,000 US and up depending on the property you purchase.
Salman Siddiqui: Yes. And I was about to ask you that. How much does one need to spend on a qualifying real estate in order to obtain citizenship? And you just mentioned that figure, but are there any restrictions on reselling the property?
Kal Dobbin: Yes. So there are some parameters that owners have to follow. So in Antigua, you have to own the property for a minimum of five years and after that you can dispose of it or you can hold on to it. So that's the only stipulation, really, if you're buying a property here that it has to be held on to four or five years. And also, it's not every property has to be approved to be the basis for a citizenship application. So there are probably 18 or so developments on the island in good locations, mostly close to the ocean and the beaches that are approved for citizenship. And the purpose of the program when it comes to property is to really stimulate new tourism infrastructure for the island. That's why you won't find a sort of an older property that was built 20 years ago that will not be approved for citizenship. It has to be new tourism infrastructure. So most of the properties that you will buy if you're applying for citizenship, will be off plan. They won't be built yet. They'll be built.
Salman Siddiqui: Do people only invest in residential properties or do they have the option to also invest in commercial properties such as hotels or other similar products?
Kal Dobbin: Yeah, sure. So there's a few different options. You can invest in a hotel property if a hotel property is approved for citizenship and there are a few of those. So those would generally be one of two things. One is that they will sell off their hotel rooms. So you could actually buy a hotel room and hopefully receive the net rental income from the operator. Sometimes it's the hotel development will be approved for shares. So perhaps the developer will sell shares in the hotel and based on your investment there. So a share will be $200,000 and hopefully there as well you'll receive some net income from the operations of the hotel. My favorite investment down here really is either a villa, there's a very sort of buoyant, healthy market for Villa Properties because we have so many people, predominantly from the US and Canada and Europe coming here on vacation and wanting to buy vacation homes. Lots of listeners who grew up in North America and Europe will know that the Caribbean holds this special place in our minds that if you well… it's a place to come on vacation.
Kal Dobbin: It's extremely beautiful. And if you can have a home in the Caribbean, it's a kind of a mark of success in some ways. So a lot of people would dream and imagine of that. So there's no worry specifically from those markets in terms of buying property here. It's sought after. However, when you've got clients that come outside of those regions or come from outside those regions, they're not as familiar with the Caribbean and perhaps they're a little bit more concerned about the value of the property and who they're going to resell it to and will it rent. So I do spend quite a bit of time with clients talking about the property market here, how it works, who actually rents the properties, who will you resell to after five years? The good news is that Antigua is one of the most popular sort of high end destinations in the Caribbean. It has one of the highest GDPs, and we have a lot of tourists coming here every year. So the property market is very good, especially right now.
Salman Siddiqui: Right. And if you could also elaborate from your own experience, from your clients, is it just residential properties or are you seeing the trend of investment in other areas? Are you also seeing investment in hotels?
Kal Dobbin: Yeah, we are seeing investments from clients in the hotel, the commercial properties, but most of the clients will want to invest in something that what we call a lifestyle buyer would want. So that's a sort of second home buyer or a primary home buyer. So their concern is that when they come to resell the property, they don't want to be relying on the citizenship market. The property must by itself be attractive to somebody who perhaps isn't interested in citizenship. So that's why my recommendation is always to look at villas, condominiums of which there are not that many. And if you are going to go for the commercial properties and the hotel investments, you need to really think, well, will I be able to resell that to somebody if there's no citizenship attached to it in five years time, i.e. if there's no citizenship program in Antigua in five years? I'm sure there will be. But imagine that something changes and the program isn't here anymore. Can you resell that investment? And that's obviously an important factor. And if you buy a vacation property, essentially a villa or an apartment, well, you know that there's going to be a market to exit to because there's a ton of people who want to buy vacation homes here. So most of our clients prefer the residential investments, but there are commercial opportunities. In addition, I should add that there's actually a third investment route in Antigua, a business investment route that the other islands don't offer.
Salman Siddiqui: I was just about to come to that. Yes, exactly. On that point that the requirements for obtaining citizenship through business related investments and how investors can bring down their costs, perhaps by clubbing together their business related investments and the citizenship opportunities.
Kal Dobbin: So the business investment route is interesting, but it's little used. So there are probably less than ten businesses approved for citizenship. And it's not the case that you can sort of say, I'd like to set up a business and based on that, I'd like to apply for citizenship. Broadly it is, but basically, if you want to invest in a business down here and use that investment to base your citizenship application on, you actually have to sort of present a plan to the government. They have to approve the business and the minimum investment for a single applicant who's investing in a business is 1.5 million USD. It's not a small amount. If you want to club together with a group, then the minimum investment has to be 5 million. But each investor can put in a minimum of 400,000. So that does bring the amount down. So for instance, if somebody wanted to come here and start a fish farming business, or perhaps they want to start a hotel or perhaps they want to start a retail or a manufacturing operation, they'd have to put their business plan together. They'd submit it to the government. They'd have to show that they're at least investing 5 million USD if it's a group of investors. And each of them could put in a minimum of 400,000 into that business and based on that investment into the business and the country, therefore they could apply for citizenship. I hope that makes sense.
Salman Siddiqui: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But I also want to know, I'm sure since it's a lot of money, not a lot of people then apply for it. So are you seeing growth over the years?
Kal Dobbin: No, not in my experience anyway. So people ask about it, but then when they realize what's involved, I mean, it's a major commitment. They're not usually on for that. You know, I'd say 99% of our clients. Taking what I call a dip in the water. And so perhaps if they're coming from North America and Europe, they've probably been here on vacation already and they're probably sort of interested in buying a property. And the passport is sometimes secondary for them. If you apply for citizenship and if you're buying a property here and you're not a citizen, there's 7% tax. So one of the reasons why we're seeing a lot of North Americans and Europeans apply for citizenship now is because there's a savings, a tax saving when you buy a property here. So, yeah, we're not really seeing too many business applications. Last year, over 70% of our clients invested in property, whether they came from North America or the rest of the world. So properties definitely become more popular. I think there's more awareness about Antigua and the property market here, even in the rest of the world. So that's the most popular.
Salman Siddiqui: But sticking on this point about business related investments, do you think there is a need to rethink then the minimum investment thresholds for the business related investments that they should perhaps bring down the amount from the current 1.5 million USD to maybe half of that investment requirement? Maybe there's a need to rethink that if it's not working, clearly, maybe.
Kal Dobbin: Yeah, I think that's a really valid point actually, because we haven't seen many business investments down here, and primarily the people who are interested - pre-COVID anyway - were coming from parts of the world that didn't have the familiarity and comfort level, so they weren't going to commit to popping in 1.5 or 5 million USD into something here when they have never been here and they're not familiar with the region or the country.
So, yes, potentially, perhaps if they could bring that threshold down, I think they might see more people interested in setting up businesses here, because we have seen over the last couple of years, I've had quite a few people move here from other parts of the world. So I'm talking about West Africa, talking about Asia. And those people definitely came here to move here with their families as a result of the citizenship program. And actually some of them have started businesses subsequently. So I think, yes, if we bring the threshold down, I think that could really help; I think more people would look at the business investment. However, I feel like there's a time that's needed to get a sense of comfort, to want to make that kind of investment in the country. So perhaps getting the citizenship first and then looking at business is always going to be the more the more natural progression.
Salman Siddiqui: Now let's move on to the very important topic of due diligence in Antigua and Barbuda Citizenship by Investment Program. So as you know, the due diligence process has been in the spotlight in the media for, I would say, quite a few months now, especially with the Caribbean programs. So if you could just tell our listeners, how does the due diligence process work under the current Citizenship by Investment program? What factors do they consider and what has changed? Has it become more robust or not?
Kal Dobbin: That's also a good question and it's a really important one. The short answer is yes; it has become more robust. It's being assessed and looked at all the time, not only by the Caribbean governments but by international governments, the US. So let me explain how it works. Basically, the due diligence is farmed out to third parties and there's also quite a bit of oversight here domestically. So the first sort of port of call is when you make an application, you have to apply through a licensed agent and you should be attracted to the program in the first place, possibly by finding out more about it by an authorized representative company.
So our company, for instance, is an authorized representative. So we're authorized to go out and market the program, talk to prospective people or clients for it around the world. And then we have two full time employees who are licensed agents who then will represent our clients and liaise directly with the citizenship unit throughout the application process. And it's our job as licensed individuals to make sure that we present good candidates. So how we do that is we actually sign up with the same diligence company that the government uses. They're called Refinitiv and they're based in the US. So we vet every client before we agree to represent them in the application and we also interview them to find out whether there's going to be any sort of major issues that might preclude them from applying. And that's things like perhaps they've had a visa refused to Europe. Well, in which case they're not going to be able to get their Antiguan citizenship until they have successfully applied for a visa to that country because one of the benefits of having Antigua citizenship is that you get visa free access to Europe. So if there's they're not going to approve you if you've had a visa denied. So Refinitiv is one thing, third party and the agents.
And then in terms of the actual government, they have a sort of multifaceted multi-level diligence process. When you collect your paperwork that takes about 4 to 6 weeks. So you work with us to put it all together. We oversee everything, we prepare the application, and we submit it. The government has up to 90 days to give us an answer that's in the legislation. So they'll either give us a yes or a no, or they'll say we need a little bit more time. And most of that 90 days is taken up by their diligence team and their compliance team. So they use Refinitiv. They have training by the International Migration Council. The Financial Services Regulatory Commission in the Caribbean has oversight on all money transfers. They're very strict on money laundering regulations and things like that. The Cabinet has oversight of the Citizenship Investment Unit and each agent has to go through a sort of diligence process. So there's quite a few people involved, not least the banking side of things, because one of the great concerns for the Caribbean is financial diligence. And they want to make sure that anyone going through the program is financially diligent and not doing anything wrong. So that's a big area that they look into. So that's broadly how it works. Basically, if you're a pirate out there, if you've done something wrong or you're earning your money illegitimately, there's no point in applying for a citizenship in the Caribbean because you will not get through the diligence.
And actually, just last month, I should also mention, there was a roundtable with the Eastern Caribbean Central Bank. They host them every month. And the leaders of the five Caribbean citizenship by investment jurisdictions all attended. And it was actually also attended by a delegation led by the Deputy Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury.
The US basically wanted to engage and they have been engaging over the years on how the programs are run here and trying to sort of create a framework that broadly mirrors how they run their own residency and citizenship pathways. For instance, there's the EB-5 program in the US. They have diligence, they look into their clients. How does that work and how can the Caribbean match that so that our diligence levels are on par. So they actually came out with a sort of six point result of what to do. And I think the primary one was the US really didn't want the Caribbean jurisdictions allowing Russians and Belarusians to apply. So they have been banned. Some of the countries have been quite proactive and they had already adopted that as part of their risk management framework and they had already banned Russians. But everybody has now. And there were five other things which I can't remember off the top of my head, but things just to make sure that that every client is looked into properly and that between the US and the Caribbean countries, you have these programs, there's a sort of level playing field in terms of looking into people.
Salman Siddiqui: Right. And I read about what you just mentioned, I think it was the US Treasury which came up with this six principles for the Caribbean programs. And like you said, they were mainly concerned about the Russians and the Belarusian applicants for the CBI programs. And I think that also brings a topic of why the European Commission is closely looking into the CBI programs in Europe and of course in the Caribbean. So I'm glad that you mentioned that. And I also wanted to understand the reason why there's this talk about more due diligence. I want to understand from your perspective as a person who has been involved with the program, you see clients every day. Do you think there's an unfair pressure, perhaps on the Caribbean nations that they have to somehow come up with more steps to please certain conditions? Or do you think this was a much needed measure to finally step up and make the program more robust? What's your take on it?
Kal Dobbin: Great question. My view is that we can't have too much diligence. And I think for the most part, my impression is that the leaders of the citizenship units and the governments here have no issue with creating more robust programs to make sure that the people that they're attracting to their country are the right people. There are so many you know, there's such a big market for second citizenship. It's a huge industry. There's plenty of wonderful, talented, knowledgeable, great candidates out there. And each country wants to attract those. So I think increasing strengthening these frameworks and strengthening the integrity of these programs only works to support them and make them more valuable. And I think the governments and the citizenship units agree. I do have a sort of personal thought on the pressure that's been coming from Europe, because Europe, for instance, actually did not like the Vanuatu citizenship program, which they felt was not being run well. And they did impose a visa on Vanuatu passport holders, which they previously didn't have. So that's sort of really blown up some of the market for the Vanuatu passport because a lot of those applicants would have been applying because of the EU visa free access and the concern in the Caribbean.
One of them would be that Europe imposes a visa on the Caribbean citizenship by investment countries, which we obviously don't want. My feeling on it is that the Caribbean countries here should sort of turn the submarine into the torpedo, as it were. And I think that they should change the program a little bit to include more residency so that the programs are more like EB-5 and more like the UK Tier 1 Entrepreneur program, where there's quite a bit of residency required before you can achieve your citizenship. And I know that would reduce perhaps initially some people from applying because it wouldn't be as quick and there would be a residency requirement. But I think that there is so much demand now, especially from North America and Europe, of people who actually do want to spend time here. And I think it would safeguard the program for the future. So that would be what I would do if it was my decision.
Salman Siddiqui: I also want to touch on what you mentioned about what's happened with Vanuatu's program once the EU decided to basically tell them that they won't get visa free access on their passports anymore. But is that a fear that you also hear from your own clients that maybe in the future their passports from Antigua won't be that strong? And do you get those kinds of questions from your clients that, you know, what will happen in the future? Is it worth the money that they're going to invest and how do you respond to that?
Kal Dobbin: Not so much, but we do get that question. I have had that question in the past. Is this passport going to hold value? You know, what's going to happen in the future? And of course, I don't know because I can't tell the future. But my feeling on it is my belief is that, yes, I actually think that a citizenship here is only going to become more valuable. And even if and I don't think it will happen, but even if the European Union did impose a visa on Antigua, for instance, there are just a lot of compelling reasons why you would want to have a citizenship here. And some of it is related to personal security and what's going on in Europe and perhaps things that are going on in North America that's driving a lot of people to say, well, hey, can I have a backup in the Caribbean? Can I hedge my bets here? Can I have a plan B? Because it's not good enough to just have a home in a place that you can fly to if something happens, as we saw in the pandemic, sometimes you actually need a different passport to exit a country and then to get into one when borders closed down and proverbial hits the fan.
So it really is the ultimate protection. So Plan B and then Antigua actually scrapped all personal income tax in 2016. So there is no personal income tax here. That's a major factor as well for people who are applying because they're thinking, okay, well, maybe I'm not doing it this year, but let me give myself an option in the future to go and live in a low tax jurisdiction. Corporate tax is quite low here, too, so that's also in people's minds. It's not just about the visa free travel anymore. There's more to it than that. There's personal security, there's tax and there's lifestyle. You know, so many people during COVID started to think about remote work and started to actually work remotely. And now, of course, companies have adopted that sort of remote work. Trends spiked because we had to, and now it's almost become the norm. So we've had a lot of people moving down here because they said, why don't I go and spend 3 or 4 months in the Caribbean? So there are different motivations.
Salman Siddiqui: And that's so true that the pandemic, especially in the post-pandemic world that we all live in, the reasons that people have for getting a second citizenship are totally different from what it was before. So I'm glad you brought that up. And also the trend of digital nomads in so many countries programs has been growing and that I think you are referring to. And that's also a trend in Antigua now, isn't it?
Kal Dobbin: Yeah, for sure; lots of digital nomads down here. Basically that's a sort of two year tourist visa. And give you any tax advantages or anything like that just allows you to hang out on the beach and work for a company that's outside of Antigua. And a lot of jurisdictions offered those and they've been very popular. And then actually when people spend that time here, they decide, Hey, maybe I'll move here, You know, maybe I'll set up a business, maybe I'll relocate. But the power of the passport and another sort of thing I say to people when they ask about that is it's not just about visa free travel. There's more to it than that. And because there's so much investment, especially in the case of Antigua, there is a tremendous amount of foreign direct investment pouring into Antigua, especially in the last couple of years. So when you look at the success factors of the country, like the educational infrastructure, the medical infrastructure, the business infrastructure, lifestyle factors, health, etc, initiatives here that are being taken by the government, we've got a stable democratic government. We've got a currency that's pegged to the US dollar. These are all sort of things that you can look at and say, well, what is the forecast for this country? You know, how valuable is it? And there's way more to it than just the visa free travel.
Having said that, I don't think that the visa free travel is going to change, but if it does, I foresee that especially a country like Antigua will go from strength to strength. There's just too much going on down here now and too much good international investment that the economy's doing well. And I think it's going to go from strength to strength. It's transformed just in the last 10 to 15 years, certainly in the last 20 years that I've been here. And another difference I should just mention for listeners who are thinking about buying property here or getting citizenship, in 2007, when we were here, we were selling property. Pretty much all of our clients were buying with debt. They were getting mortgages and they were buying homes down here. And then we had the crash in 2008, and the property market here didn't collapse in the same way that it did in North America and Europe. It just leveled off. It stagnated. There was not much happening for a couple of years, hardly any sales. And then it started to pick up again. Pretty much everyone that's buying now, buying property is buying with cash. There's so much cash in the system because of quantitative easing and a lot of it is ending up down in places like the Caribbean. And that's what we're seeing now.
Salman Siddiqui: I see. So if you could also share in a lot of countries programs, I've heard from so many people that actually the pandemic was great for the program because a lot of people then invested in the country. So was that also the case in Antigua? And if you could also tell me from where people were coming to invest, were you mostly seeing investors from the US or were you seeing people from China or other countries? So if you could share some trends.
Kal Dobbin: Yeah, well, there were definitely people coming from the main access points. So the main access, we've got two flights a day from London, we've got a flight a day to Toronto. We have a flight or two a week to Montreal, New York, Miami. So we're very well connected here in Antigua. It's an air hub for the eastern Caribbean. Our airport is brand new. So that is also one of the good factors about Antigua is it is well connected. So we did see a lot of people coming from those places and nearby.
I can think of a handful of families that came from Europe or North America that I've met just in the last couple of years. They decided, well, it's COVID. Let's just go down to the Caribbean, lucky them, and ended up staying. And they're still here. And they've started businesses and they've opened restaurants and they're starting to go and work at the school or they've made a lifestyle decision basically based on the experience that they had during COVID.
But it definitely also brought people from other parts of the world as well. I know two families from Nigeria that moved here during COVID. I also had a client who very luckily made an application before the war broke out between Russia and Ukraine. And there's a Ukrainian family, there are two kids were studying in the US. They decided to apply for citizenship and they got it. And they live here now and they have a business in Europe and they have a business in the US. And they were very lucky obviously, because now they wouldn't be able to apply.
Salman Siddiqui: And that's a very interesting point that you raised about this other big factor which is happening globally, which is the impact of the Ukraine war on different countries programs. I'm very glad to hear that Ukraine families are taking advantage of the program in your country. Do you expect that to happen more, though? More applicants from Ukraine and maybe I don't know what happens in the future, but maybe applicants from Belarus or maybe Russians would be perhaps also be allowed to apply. Do you see that happening?
Kal Dobbin: I think the demand has gone up from those countries for sure. You know, sadly, with what's going on, however, none of them are able to apply in the Caribbean, mostly because the diligence is presently very challenging and it's just not going to happen. So right now, Russians, Belarusians, and Ukrainians cannot apply for citizenship here in Antigua, and I don't see that changing until we see some kind of resolution to the current situation, unfortunately. So I feel for those families that they're now not afforded that opportunity through no fault of their own.
Salman Siddiqui: Before I let you go, I would also like to hear more from you about the trends you're seeing from the US. You've already mentioned that you've been associated with the industry for more than 20 years now, so you must have seen a lot of changes in the kind of applicants who come to Antigua. Have you noticed that before? Perhaps they were just investors willing to park their money into certain properties and now maybe families are coming in to buy their vacation homes? What has changed? You've seen the arc of time for a long period. So what can you share about the American investors?
Kal Dobbin: Well, when I came here in 2004, 2005, and my husband and I were in Saint Kitts, even the Saint Kitts program, even though it was legislated in 1984, it wasn't used very much. They didn't have European visa free access. Nobody was really doing much with it. I think they were sort of issuing eight passports a year or something, and that sort of changed in 2006, 2007. Then at that time, the first couple of years that they really started promoting it and understanding the value of what they had there, it was pretty much Asian applicants. That was the market. If you wanted to sell citizenship, as it were, then, you were really talking to people in Asia because they were already very familiar with the concept of immigration investment, and they were always very interested in immigrating to Canada, to the US and to Europe, all of whom back in the day had pathways where you could make an investment and then achieve your citizenship over time. The Canadians kind of started the concept of citizenship by investment in a way, because they had a program where you could invest. It's closed down now, but that went on for many years and it got so popular and I don't know the exact statistics off the top of my head, but many of the applicants, if not most, were coming from Asia and they got backed up.
I think at one point it was taking 13 years to get through the process when they actually finally shut that program down. The UK has a very similar pathway where you can invest, I think, £10 million and achieve your citizenship within 24 months. And there's a 12 month residency requirement. I believe that's the program. And then you have the EB-5 in the US. So from the US we really weren't seeing that much interest at all back then. Then we started to get a lot more clients from the Middle East. We were getting clients from Russia as the years went on. Antigua started its program in 2014, so it's relatively new. And immediately they started marketing to Asia, to Eastern Europe, to all the places that where basically you might be interested in having a second passport because you can't travel all that well on your own passport. And then it's really just in the last couple of years that we've started seeing a lot of interest from the US. It just wasn't there before. People in the US felt they had the best passport in the world or one of them and they didn't need another one. And now we can see what's going on in the US from the outside looking in and there is a lot of division and whichever side, whichever end of the spectrum clients sit on, they're dissatisfied with what's happening.
They're concerned about the future of the country. And basically they're worried and they're looking for a plan B, And it's extraordinary really, because it used to be other countries that would be looking for those Plan Bs or other citizens and now US citizens, they feel like the ground is shaky under their feet and they just want to make sure that they have an out. And some of them are looking to get out right now and a lot of families. So yeah, it's interesting and a lot of young people too. Some of our clients are quite young. Perhaps they've done well enough to apply for citizenship. It's not a $5 million expense. It is the cost of a luxury vehicle or a small home. So it is achievable. You know, a second citizenship is very achievable by investment. And so we've got some young clients who haven't even had a family or perhaps haven't even got married yet, and they're thinking ahead. They're like, I'm going to get one. And then they're asking, how do I add my kids in the future? How do I add my spouse? And how much will that cost me?
Salman Siddiqui: Wow, that's really interesting. That's such a big shift in the trend. I'm so glad that you mentioned that. And thank you so much for sharing this. And before I let you go on, I'll give you an opportunity to send a message to our listeners about why they should consider Antigua's program. So you have 30 seconds to make your pitch. Go ahead, Kal!
Kal Dobbin: Okay, great. Well, having spent almost 20 years here in the Caribbean myself and having helped hundreds of families achieve citizenship and residency and change their lifestyle, in some cases move down here, I cannot recommend it enough. I did the same thing with my husband; he's Canadian; i'm English and [along with] our children -  and we have not looked back. It is the ultimate sort of hedge. It is a fantastic lifestyle and it's something that you can actually achieve. It's not a pipe dream. It is achievable. So if you want to talk to me about it, you can look me up and I'll be happy to talk.
Salman Siddiqui: Thank you so much, Kal. And before I go, I also want to send a message to our listeners to please stay tuned. We'll be bringing more episodes on the Caribbean programs and from other parts of the world - so please stay tuned. You've been listening to the Investment Immigration podcast by Uglobal.com. Join us again soon for more in-depth conversations exploring investment immigration opportunities from around the world.

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