Mary: ...is addressed to any investor who is interested to make any investment in the Greek economy to participate in the investment with €250,000, each investor. It's not a closed program. It can be more than one investors in the same investment. It can be concluded through already existing Greek companies through capital in Greece, or to opt to establish a Greek company. This Golden Visa is not only a residence permit, it's also work permit. There are a lot of advantages in this route, but the way of implementation is different, which according to my opinion, is very secure also for the investor.

Salman: Welcome to the "Investment Immigration Podcast" by uglobal.com, with weekly in-depth interviews with the world's leading investment immigration professionals.

Hi everyone, this is the "Investment Immigration Podcast" and I'm your host, Salman Siddiqui. This week, we are going to focus on Greece's investment immigration program. Now, there's lots happening in Greece these days. There's a huge change expected in the country's program. The Greek Prime Minister recently announced an increase in the minimum investment threshold for Golden Visas. We're gonna talk about how this will impact the country's investment immigration program. We're also gonna discuss the country's digital nomad program, the overall trends in the investment immigration program there, and a bunch of other stuff. Now, to help us navigate this world of Greece's investment immigration, we have today in our show a very distinguished guest, Mary, who is the Vice President of Synergia. Now, Synergia is a leading asset management and investment immigration consulting firm, which was established over a decade ago in Athens. Welcome to the show, Mary.

Mary: Nice to meet you. Thank you for the chance that you give us in order to represent our program and to express our views about the potential future of our program.

Salman: Thank you so much. And just straight into the questions because everybody wants to know what's happening. Now, could you please explain what exactly has the Greek Prime Minister announced about the increase in the minimum investment threshold for Golden Visas?

Mary: The truth is that the International Exhibition of Thessaloniki, late last September, our Prime Minister announced that the Greek Golden Visa minimum threshold is going to be increased from €250,000 to €500,000. His exact words were, "In order to increase the affordability of real estate for Greeks, we are now increasing the minimum amount of investment required for Greek Golden Visa Program to €500,000." The Prime Minister point out this, among other measures, regarding the housing policy of the government and nothing else was pointed out. It was just an announcement. And of course after that, a lot of questions, a lot of concerns, a lot of worries. I believe that we have to wait. This is my personal opinion.

Salman: Okay. Before we go into what exactly is happening there, now this announcement was made, correct me if I'm wrong, sometime in September, right?

Mary: Exactly.

Salman: So, what has happened since then? Have there been more announcements about that from other officials?

Mary: Up to now, no official announcement has been taking place between the ministries and in the market. But according to our even internal information and also serious information from the market, we are waiting for the following. Until the end of November of 2022, we are waiting for the circular to be published which is going to specify the individual terms and conditions of this new measure. At that stage, it isn't clear if the increase of the amount will be a horizontal measure or it will be according to the areas of Greece. At that point, I would like to mention that, although for all of us this announcement was, let's say, something like shock, we have to admit that from early 2020, the Greek parliament had already voted a provision in the law that through a joint decision of the three ministries, development, migration, and finance, the Greek government had the option to increase or to adjust the minimum threshold of the program according to the development of each area of Greece. So, the framework was already voted and we already knew that some time it would happen according to this provision which already stated in the law and needs only a circular in order to be implemented. It's not necessary to pass by through the parliament.

Again, we're waiting for specific plans, like the measure is expected to be applied not in the whole Greece, not horizontal, but mostly in the municipalities of big cities like Athens and Thessaloniki. And even more in specific areas of them, which have, let's say, the highest and the most expensive demand. Along with to the most privileged and high graded suburbs and dialects, indicate this has already circulated among the sources. Of course, it's not exactly reliable but they are speaking about areas like Glyfada, like Vouliagmeni, like Voula, like Kifisia, expensive areas, in any case from the municipality of Athens.

The first issue that we are waiting for is the geographical restrictions and the way that this measure will be implemented. The second is the timeline, when this will be implemented. The most sources that we have already contacted officially and unofficially is that, taking into consideration the time that is required in order an investment to be implemented properly, is at least two months according to what is required to be prepared. This timeline won't be applicable before the end of the current year. This is something that we, all of us, all the players of the market are aware of.

Salman: Right. And do you expect the increase in the threshold amount to get implemented soon? So you are saying basically that there'll be still some time before that gets implemented? But in terms of getting a timeline that you mentioned, would it be safe to say that this would happen maybe sometime next year by April? What date exactly are you hearing?

Mary: Although the Ministry of Development would be interested in order this timeline to be applicable early next year, the truth is that the Ministry of Migration is scheduling for a longer transition period. First of all, not to disrupt the operation of the program, and same time to ensure a smooth transition for all the investors who are already going or open cases. I believe that early next year is the one option, but perhaps it will be extended for three, four months because it is needed. A lot of transactions are ongoing. And as you can understand, everyone now tries to cut the dates, tries to be in the loop. So, it won't be impossible to finalize.

Salman: Are you saying like maybe next year's summer we'll still have time before this gets implemented or maybe...or you're saying next year autumn? What is your sense?

Mary: My sense is that there will be a timeline of application, like early next year, but in the meantime, there will be measures who will ensure that investors who have already finalized their payments, their investment payments, or they would... Of course we have to find a reliable way to confirm that this investor is interested for Golden Visa. But there will be other measures which will help to confirm that the ongoing investors won't be subject to this increase. I'm sure for that because I have already read in an article that I really believe that Greece and Greek government won't apply retroactively measures on ongoing investors. It's principle of our law.

Salman: And you also mentioned something very interesting about where this would be applied. So, let's dive into that question because a lot of people are wondering about that. So, is it true that this increase in the investment threshold would only apply if a Golden Visa applicant buys properties in big cities like Athens or somewhere near it? Is that what it is?

Mary: This is again a rumor, but not past a rumor or not reliable. I believe that even if we be focused on the already voted, the provision in our law, something like that will happen. Not a horizontal measure which, first of all, it's not applicable because all the areas of Greece are not under the same development and the prices are not the same. If you buy a property in Mykonos or in Santorini, perhaps you have to pay more than €500,000. It cannot be considered the same as to buy a property in a small area of Peloponnese. And also, I don't believe that it would serve the main goal of the government to support and to make easier the ordinary purchase of a property for Greeks. But we have to wait some days in order to be sure.

Salman: Right. Now, let's talk about why this is happening and what was the logic behind it. You mentioned that it was out of concern for the Greek citizens that maybe some properties were becoming out of reach for them. Is that the only reason?

Mary: I believe that this was the main target of the government and the prime minister. He actually indicated, not in the main speech, which was a broad speech, but next day in the interview when he was asked about that, he mentioned that these measures and this innovation were designed in order to make easier for the Greek families to solve the housing issue. Because the truth is that, especially in some areas of Athens, which is our main business target, the prices have much been increased in comparison with the previous year. And the truth is that since as the program is of now, every foreign investor can buy not only one but more than one property. This market has been much affected for the Greek people. And the Prime Minister has already announced, let's say a range of measures in order to make the real estate available for Greek families especially for young couples. And the program is €1.8 million program which targets to 100,000 beneficiaries. Other measures among the increase of Golden Visa is low interest loans for couples between 25 and 39 years old. Mass renovation of empty houses and utilization of real estate of the state through the institution of social compensation, subsidy to young couples in order to find the properties, housing renovation subsidy for long-term leases. There were a lot of measures. And among them, also Golden Visa increase was announced in order to facilitate for Greek people, their purchase of properties.

Salman: Right. And do you think the government is making a mistake by increasing this threshold? Because a lot of foreign applicants for the Golden Visa would probably now think about other countries instead of Greece. This might end up hurting Greece's program.

Mary: If I am asked for, and not because of Golden Visa investors, perhaps it could be done in another way. Because one of the main advantages of our program was the minimum along Europe entrance amount. I'm not sure if this measure really will help the availability for Greek people.

Salman: Right. But do you expect now that high-net-worth individuals would start losing interest in the Golden Visa program of Greece if this plan gets implemented next year? How are you looking at this?

Mary: We have to see more globally as an idea to evaluate factors that motivate the foreign investors to invest in the country or not. I don't believe that finally, the Greek Golden Visa program will be worse affected from this decision. First of all, our program is not only the 250 acquisition of a property, there are three alternative options through which every investor can participate in the program. The one, of course, is the property. And I could say that it's the more popular option because along the wait, something common for everybody is the purchase of the property. People are familiar with the idea of investment through purchase of property. But there are so many other options for somebody who wants to invest in Greece. And take the residence permit, not obligatory Golden Visa, but even a residence permit of the country without being combined with the property. But even so, there are other routes like general investments. This is the most under-rewarded option of our program, which according to my opinion, is the main idea of residence permit investment programs.

Salman: Okay. So then, what are you advising investors who are closely following these developments in Greece? Are you telling them that they should look into the other options that you just mentioned? Are you telling them that they should immediately apply for the golden residency without delay? Are you telling them to wait for a little bit more clarity on the government's plans and then apply? What are you saying to your clients?

Mary: Two different issues. The one is the people who are already on process or they're already familiar with such an option, buying a property. I would advise to move forward and not to wait because some months, two, three, I don't know, this option will be, especially for big cities, perhaps not feasible. So, if they have already making their evaluation, and they have taken their decision, it's better to move on. And I feel confident that the people that are already on the process won't be subject to surprise of this increase. But in general, I would like to ask more our government, not the investors, to redefine the promotion and the advertisement of the program by redefining the real investment options and opportunities that Greece can provide to investors.

Salman: Fantastic. Thank you for sharing all that information. Now, let's move on to some other topics as well. I would love to hear more about the trends that you see among your clients, and especially about from which countries do most of the applicants come from and what kind of profiles do you usually have to deal with?

Mary: First of all, I would like to say that, you know, Chinese clients, they are always the first who invest in the programs. Our company was not so much involved with Chinese market because there is a very special market. People from China are coming and buying only through specific channels who are controlled and, let's say, promoted from their agents. This is a market which has its own problems. So, we were not so much involved in the Chinese market. Our clients mostly come from Turkey, of course, a lot of clients from Turkey, Middle East countries, Dubai, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia. At that point, I would like to say that our main company, the mother company of Synergia, is based in Dubai. So, it's easier for us to have a penetration in this market. North Africa, Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, but mostly Egypt. South Africa, a lot of clients especially the last two years, Ukraine, South America, Argentina, and Brazil.

Salman: Who are your top three, would you say?

Mary: We have a very big spread. We are not dependent on a specific country, but most clients of ours are Turkey. And during the last year from 2020, but mostly from '21, U.S. and UK.

Salman: That's very interesting, Turkey, U.S., and UK. Turkey, I can also understand. I mean, it's quite close to Greece so that also makes a lot of sense. And from the UK, post-Brexit, I'm sure there's a lot of interest in the program. But in terms of the U.S., what changes are you seeing there? Is this interest in the Greek program a recent phenomena, or would you say this has been gradually happening over a period of five years, or did the pandemic change it, the interest for the Americans in the Greek program?

Mary: First of all, three years ago, it's not a joke, it's a reality, we had a client, a woman, who was coming from the Middle East countries and her husband was an American citizen. When she finalized her Golden Visa and when we proposed if her husband would be interested, as family member of the investor, to be entitled also for the program, I had an answer that, "I have one of the most powerful passports along the planet. It's not in my interest." After not even a year, I was required to issue the family members permit even in less than a month. I was much surprised during the last year and from the so increasing demand from U.S. citizens for the Greek program. And they are not only interested for a residence permit just to take the residence permit without being in the country, the half of them are really interested and they are searching for properties in order to relocate. A very big surprise for me, and I believe for everybody in the most conferences that I have participated during the current year, one of the main issues around the discussion is American trends.

Salman: Right. And they're coming with their families, you're saying? Or is it just like one person trying to relocate or is it the entire family they're bringing from the U.S.?

Mary: They are, first of all, all of families, individuals. Mostly families. There are a lot of factors that have already created this trend. The spread of Coronavirus, according to my opinion, has much affected, and not only Americans, but Americans the most. They realized that although they had one of the powerful passports, they couldn't be allowed to travel during COVID times. Climate changes, uncertainties of the situation in the country, I believe that they are some of the factors that lead Americans to search for European, not only Greek, but also European residence permits.

Salman: That's true because I've been interviewing other people and other professionals in the investment immigration space in Europe and a lot of people are saying the same thing that American interest has gradually increased over the years. And what about the interest from people who are being affected by the big war happening in Europe? You mentioned Ukraine. So post this war, which nobody knows when it's gonna end, do you think interest from countries like Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus, and all other countries who are involved in this conflict, you're getting interest from clients there?

Mary: Greek Golden Visa program, Russians and Belarus are excluded. So, the consequences on our applications from Russia... First of all, we didn't have a lot of Russian clients because the areas that mostly are subject to their interest or where was the North Greece, Thessaloniki. In Athens, generally, we didn't have a lot Russian investors. Ukrainian, we had even before and even now. But not just to concern why or what is this trend, it's not a trend, it's something common.

Salman: Okay, great. And we'll see what happens about this impact of the war in Europe and what happens in other countries as well about how it affects their programs. But it's an interesting trend to point out. So thank you for sharing that. I would also like to talk about the digital nomads trend in your country. Are you seeing an increase in the interest from digital nomads and what sort of tax advantages does Greece offer to them?

Mary: Tax advantages are different for... It's two different issues that exactly what you are asking me. The one is the tax benefits through the beneficial tax regimes that Greece has already introduced, and these programs are applicable either to investors or not because our programs are not combined. The tax residency issue is not combined with the residence by itself. It's something independent. For example, pensioners who are relocating in Greece or are interested just to transfer their tax residence in Greece, independent of an investment or not, Golden Visa or other investment, are entitled for a 7% tax rate for 15 years.

Salman: I'm thinking about what makes Greece attractive for digital nomads. People have global incomes and they don't want to be double taxed on that. So, I was just trying to understand what makes Greece attractive for them.

Mary: I believe that especially for digital nomads, this is something that the whole planet faces and there is a new trend which came to our lives during COVID. A lot of us were working digitally or remotely. This reality continues. People understood that it's much easy to be in your house or in Greece and working for U.S. employer. So, the digital nomad as a trend is something that all the countries are aware of, and of course, most of them are introducing benefits in order to attract digital nomads. In terms of digital nomads of Greece, it's a very easy procedure. It can be issued either in the country of the applicant or even in Greece. If somebody legally entered Greece through a second visa or the Americans without visa, they can apply from here without any difficulties or without...and very quickly to be entitled with two years residence permit.

Salman: Okay. So, let's move on to another topic that a lot of people wonder about, is the investment immigration route in Greece. Is it just residential real estate where people can put their money in? Are commercial entities like hotels up for grabs? Is this type of investment popular in your experience? I mean, I'm asking this question for the benefit of people who don't know that well Greece's program and maybe you can shed some light on that.

Mary: The truth is that anybody, when contact us, are asking about the property route because it's something that is very well known. It's something that they understand. But as I already discussed previously, I believe that a real investment can be so many other things. In Greece, we have the second route of the Greek Golden Visa program is addressed to any investor who is interested to make any investment in the Greek economy to participate in the investment with €250,000 each investor. It's not a closed program. It can be more than one investors in the same investment. It can be concluded through already existing Greek companies through capital increase, or to establish a Greek company and implement the investment. There is no restriction to the number of investors who can participate. According to the scale of the investment, also, executives can be invited through the same profile.

This Golden Visa is not only a residence permit, it's also work permit together. There are a lot of advantages in this route, but the way of implementation is different, which, according to my opinion, is very secured action for the investor. What I mean, in property route, you have to buy the property first, and afterwards, to apply for your residence permit. In this option of the program, you have to submit a business plan of the investment that you have in mind, and of course, to define the positive impact in the Greek economy. And the Ministry of Development pre-approves the business plan, you take your residence permit and you are coming to the country in order to implement the business activity that you have already launched. This is really business.

Salman: Right. And you know, a lot of people choose the property investment is because the risk averse investor would probably find the easy route as, you know, just buy some properties and to that.

Mary: It's more easy to understand.

Salman: Exactly.

Mary: According to the very recent developments in EU, I'm sure that you are already aware about the new trends also in EU, it would be much better, people to be introduced in investment programs like energy project, tourism projects that really support and provide added value to the economies and to the investors together.

Salman: Right. So, you're saying if an investor goes down that route, their investments would not only be more secure, but it would also provide more advantage to the local economy. So yeah, that's a fair point and I'm sure a lot of people would look into those options. Okay. Now, we are coming to the end of our show and I want to give you the space for your final thoughts on Greece's program. And, what would you say to our listeners about the advantages of Greece's program, in your opinion? If you had just like 30 seconds to sum it up, if you have to make your sales pitch to them, what would you say to them?

Mary: The factors that motivate people in order to follow residence by investment programs are different for each one. The main advantages for our program in Greece is that, first of all, besides the already discussed opportunities, the Greek Golden Visa program has a lot of options for anybody who is really interested to invest and really want to have edge with a sustainable investment. Besides that, okay, they're common for many countries, but a fast process, in Greece, you need two to three months maximum in order to finalize. Three generations are average from the same investment without having to prove the dependency of the applicants to the main investor. Greece has no minimum requirement, which I believe it's much important, not even a day. Okay, free access to Europe without visas, these are first, very common, immediate income from the investment. Also, the Greek program recognize the right of the investor to be funded from his relatives, not only from himself, from his own funds.

Salman: Right. So, I mean, you've already mentioned a lot of advantages for people to consider and I'm sure people who are serious about pursuing this program would find that all very advantageous to them. It's a beautiful country. I mean, there's no reason why you should not go there to begin with. Thank you so much for joining our show, Mary. We are delighted to hear from you. You reassured our listeners and most of our foreign investors about what's happening in the country and what to expect in the coming days. So, I'm sure they were keenly interested in those points. And then you, of course, also talked about trends in the program, so thank you for sharing all of that.

Mary: Thank you for the chance that give us the room to express and to promote our program.

Salman: Thank you. And I would give a shout-out to the listeners of our show to please stick around, we'll have more experts from other countries as well. So, stay tuned.

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